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Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

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Dastradis
Posts: 2

Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#91 » Sun May 24, 2020 12:32 pm

Here I am skimming the forums to see what the server is about community wise... and lo behold it's just the same old pug/premade debate as in every other game.
ESO just recently killed off their instanced PvP scene disabling group queue and the discussion that lead up to and followed the non-sense change is pretty much replicated in this thread.

This post right here rubs me all the wrong ways, pretty much the perfect bait as far as I am concerned and the whole pug attitude in a nutshell.
Martok wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 4:08 pm This is an excellent illustrator of my prior point:
Wam wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 1:41 pmWhy do you try paint guilds are the big bad guys? when its the stubborn/ignorance/laziness of pugs who want to be competitive without putting in any work... if destro pugs can do it, why not orders...
Right. The issue can't possibly be that some who play this game have actual lives outside of the game, or perhaps family members to take care of, or children or jobs or loss to deal with and therefore come here for a bit of diversion or escape with the desire to just enjoy the experience. No, it has to be they are ignorant, or lazy, or stubborn. In other words deficient in some manner. Right.
Because the people putting in the effort to organize themselves in videogames cannot possibly have families, jobs and/or a plethora of other obligations in life, too.
More importantly even the people putting in the effort to organize themselves in videogames only do so for the singleminded purpose of ruining your play, amirite?
Considering they are out for your blood it's absolutely justifiably to change the game to suit you and your fellow pugs whilst alienating that terrible, terrible playerbase of premades and average joes with social skills.

I don't quite know about the meta of this game, but in other games the "no invites for **** classes"-issue is usually resolved by being friends with other people and/or being simply good enough players to warrant the invite in spite of the class. Who knew the power of friendship even gets you pass meta circlejerks...

It'll be interesting to see how this mess is being handled here, the game actually looks fun, and how similar "conflicts" have been handled in the past. I don't feel like investing time into another game that might just end up another a hotjoin RNG-fest like ESO... these kind of games always, without exception, devolve into a shitflinging contest between people that can hardly operate keyboards demanding the game to be changed even further to accommodate their "zero effort"-schtick.
ESO serves here as good example, there are already plenty of changes in the works (based on feedback from said hotjoin RNG-fest) that are meant to tackle things that are a non-issue in competitive play and that, once the garbage changes have been implemented, will likely become issues in every single aspect of the game - but hey, let's please the hotjoin crowd, it's the people that don't think all to much that happen to spend the most money anyways.

At some point this attitude will find its way into regular sports, I am afraid.

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Sarnai
Posts: 199

Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#92 » Sun May 24, 2020 1:17 pm

Dastradis wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 12:32 pm Here I am skimming the forums to see what the server is about community wise... and lo behold it's just the same old pug/premade debate as in every other game.
ESO just recently killed off their instanced PvP scene disabling group queue and the discussion that lead up to and followed the non-sense change is pretty much replicated in this thread.

This post right here rubs me all the wrong ways, pretty much the perfect bait as far as I am concerned and the whole pug attitude in a nutshell.
Martok wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 4:08 pm This is an excellent illustrator of my prior point:
Wam wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 1:41 pmWhy do you try paint guilds are the big bad guys? when its the stubborn/ignorance/laziness of pugs who want to be competitive without putting in any work... if destro pugs can do it, why not orders...
Right. The issue can't possibly be that some who play this game have actual lives outside of the game, or perhaps family members to take care of, or children or jobs or loss to deal with and therefore come here for a bit of diversion or escape with the desire to just enjoy the experience. No, it has to be they are ignorant, or lazy, or stubborn. In other words deficient in some manner. Right.
Because the people putting in the effort to organize themselves in videogames cannot possibly have families, jobs and/or a plethora of other obligations in life, too.
More importantly even the people putting in the effort to organize themselves in videogames only do so for the singleminded purpose of ruining your play, amirite?
Considering they are out for your blood it's absolutely justifiably to change the game to suit you and your fellow pugs whilst alienating that terrible, terrible playerbase of premades and average joes with social skills.

I don't quite know about the meta of this game, but in other games the "no invites for **** classes"-issue is usually resolved by being friends with other people and/or being simply good enough players to warrant the invite in spite of the class. Who knew the power of friendship even gets you pass meta circlejerks...

It'll be interesting to see how this mess is being handled here, the game actually looks fun, and how similar "conflicts" have been handled in the past. I don't feel like investing time into another game that might just end up another a hotjoin RNG-fest like ESO... these kind of games always, without exception, devolve into a shitflinging contest between people that can hardly operate keyboards demanding the game to be changed even further to accommodate their "zero effort"-schtick.
ESO serves here as good example, there are already plenty of changes in the works (based on feedback from said hotjoin RNG-fest) that are meant to tackle things that are a non-issue in competitive play and that, once the garbage changes have been implemented, will likely become issues in every single aspect of the game - but hey, let's please the hotjoin crowd, it's the people that don't think all to much that happen to spend the most money anyways.

At some point this attitude will find its way into regular sports, I am afraid.
Weird takeaway. All Martok was saying is that people play the game for different reasons. Some devote themselves to it, min-maxers, setting alarm clocks for city, ect ect. For others it's just a game, log on for a few hours when you have free time to have some fun for a little bit. Both are cool. And the great melting pot of both types of players are the lakes, hence the 'Open' part of ORvR.

Ultimately, all I see in this thread is the same as all the other threads about this topic:

Pugs wanting to play against other players who have the same mindset and effort level as they do.
Self-proclaimed 'elite' players and guilds NOT wanting to play against other players who have the same mindset and effort level as they do.

It's the elite players on the forums who don't want equal competition, and if that doesn't seem strange to you then you either just don't get it or you've already figured out that their peacocking and strutting is just to cover up the fact they don't want their pugstomping gravy train taken away.
WH looking for gunbad left

Dastradis
Posts: 2

Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#93 » Sun May 24, 2020 2:09 pm

Reading to the rest of the thread, I've stumbled across this post by Foofmonger:
Spoiler:
Foofmonger wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 8:50 pm
Martok wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 4:08 pm This is an excellent illustrator of my prior point:

Wam wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 1:41 pmWhy do you try paint guilds are the big bad guys? when its the stubborn/ignorance/laziness of pugs who want to be competitive without putting in any work... if destro pugs can do it, why not orders...

Right. The issue can't possibly be that some who play this game have actual lives outside of the game, or perhaps family members to take care of, or children or jobs or loss to deal with and therefore come here for a bit of diversion or escape with the desire to just enjoy the experience. No, it has to be they are ignorant, or lazy, or stubborn. In other words deficient in some manner. Right.
Everyone has lives outside of the game. This is a red herring argument and silly at that. I lead a full life, with a demanding job, and I play WAR for fun, and I understand that putting a little effort into a videogame will increase my enjoyment.

You are making an argument based on assumptions that there are a group of "no lifers" and a group of "important people who can't be bothered to care about trying in a videogame" and this is a 100% false narrative and false dichotomy. I'm sorry but it's absolutely ridiculous and all you are doing is sowing division in this community with your half-baked and half assed theories.

You are also a person who has nearly 1000 forum posts, so I don't think from your own personal viewpoint that you have any issues with having enough time to find groups or guilds.

I'm not against a pug vs pug city. I enjoy pug vs pug cities. I'm against your argument, your premise, and your bad theories. I work, I experience loss, I care for others, and I use this game for a bit of diversion and escape with a desire to just enjoy this experience. And I still am in a guild, know how to find a group, and put the **** 10 seconds of effort in that it requires to play a social game. Implying that people who like to try even a little bit have "no life" and you are somehow "more important" disgusts me.

In reality, it's actually just effort that makes the difference. It's not "having a life". We all have lives, some of us just put the minimum required effort into our lives to enjoy them, and others whine and complain.
And, I gotta say in light of it my rant was beyond unnecessary.
Sarnai wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 1:17 pm Ultimately, all I see in this thread is the same as all the other threads about this topic:

Pugs wanting to play against other players who have the same mindset and effort level as they do.
Self-proclaimed 'elite' players and guilds NOT wanting to play against other players who have the same mindset and effort level as they do.

It's the elite players on the forums who don't want equal competition, and if that doesn't seem strange to you then you either just don't get it or you've already figured out that their peacocking and strutting is just to cover up the fact they don't want their pugstomping gravy train taken away.
Other posts in the thread referred to issues in matchmaking and population, which is a foregone conclusion for all private servers. Mind you, even an utopian hotjoin matchmaking system with a population in the millions would eventually produce gameplay fueled by RNG. It's fine and dandy in games in which there is no mechanical synergy between other classes or players necessarily, say FFA arcade shooters. If your game builds on any semblance of holy trinity or basic group play, the enjoyment of your game session scales primarily with the reliability of your teammates, obviously. You'll eventually end up remembering the bad stuff much more vividly than the good stuff... meaning: it will always be a zero sum blame game, if it's not your teammates it's the premade, if it's not the premade it's the mechanics, if it's not the mechanics it's the lag, if it's not the lag it's xyz.

Equal competition means you can and do expect your opposition to play to the best of their ability. This is not a question of matchmaking algorithm but mindset.
And in the very best case that "equal competition" yields a consensus about actual gameplay issues - if you will, it's the difference between fighting your own teammates and your opposition and only fighting your opposition.

Everyone does at some point play solo, but not everyone will temper their expectations.

edit: PvP vs PvPvMatchmaking, it's easier spotting actual glitches, bugs and "balance issues" if all the movement and lazors are coordinated and not all over the from the get go. Don't you think? Who knew what really killed you in the past 30 hotjoins; was it Bobs min/max spec, Timmy's glitched ability, Jerry - the only support on your team - being afk, Karen, Matthew's and Lauren's super-duper 3man wumbo-combo, the strategic trickle-in-die-in-3-seconds of your team, a combination of all the above and RNG's bajillion shades of lolwut? You can tell, or atleast have an educated guess about what happened to you in an "equal competition".
edit: Phrasing.
Last edited by Dastradis on Sun May 24, 2020 2:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Ugle
Posts: 589

Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#94 » Sun May 24, 2020 2:13 pm

You could implement queue brackets upon queueing for city.

Wb/group leaders could choose between "tryhard", "/5" or "pug", soloqueuers would go into the last bracket.

Match brackets independantly, then match everything upon city queue closure.

Anyone trying to game the system would be apparant.
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raistomen
Posts: 93

Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#95 » Sun May 24, 2020 2:19 pm

yeah some MMR or evnen just like "hey lets give preference to premades first, then if after x time no premade found, then match up vs pug"

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Telen
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Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#96 » Sun May 24, 2020 2:20 pm

Pug queue would need to have reduced rewards. If you cant even /5
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Sarnai
Posts: 199

Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#97 » Sun May 24, 2020 2:26 pm

Telen wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 2:20 pm Pug queue would need to have reduced rewards. If you cant even /5
Full support of premade vs premade instances giving better rewards.
WH looking for gunbad left

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Telen
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Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#98 » Sun May 24, 2020 2:37 pm

If it did happen two things would happen very quickly.
Pres would stop forming after they lose. It happens in 6v6. There alot of egos of decent players that think in the right pre they would beat everyone. After a few losses its everyone else and they break up and stop queueing. This is why ranked didnt work.
Pugs would find another part of the game where they want to hide from organised pvp.
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Ugle
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Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#99 » Sun May 24, 2020 2:40 pm

Telen wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 2:20 pm Pug queue would need to have reduced rewards. If you cant even /5
I really don't see why preference of playstyle should increase or decrease rewards.

The main point would be to give the most fun for everyone.

No ones like to stomp or get stomped.

Edit: @Telen; yes i know this would happen. The failed tryhards would then have to queue for the "/5" brackets, acknowledging they only want to farm pugs.
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Telen
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Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#100 » Sun May 24, 2020 2:48 pm

Ugle wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 2:40 pm I really don't see why preference of playstyle should increase or decrease rewards.

The main point would be to give the most fun for everyone.

No ones like to stomp or get stomped.
Its just encouragement. I'll still pug but lets face it there are so many pugs that dont really know what they are doing. Dont say it isnt a little bit about lording it over them just like pres do. Really its the wrong way around. Its the better players that should be pugging and the worse players using every advantage. These players will remain bad for a long time if they just rot in pug queues.
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