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Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat
Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 3:43 am
by Illuminati
It’s pretty simply really. Count the Order AoE melee/ranged classes vs Destro. Then count the Order melee/ranged burst classes vs Destro.
That will show you why Destro wins more in open/cities and Order wins 6v6 tourneys. Take away some of the burst on Order and give them AoE, take away some of the AoE on Destro and give them burst.
Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat
Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 4:21 am
by Illuminati
Illuminati wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 3:43 am
It’s pretty simple really. Count the Order AoE melee/ranged classes vs Destro. Then count the Order melee/ranged burst classes vs Destro.
That will show you why Destro wins more in open/cities and Order wins 6v6 tourneys. Take away some of the burst on Order and give them AoE, take away some of the AoE on Destro and give them burst.
Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat
Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 5:11 am
by Sizer
Illuminati wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 4:21 am
Illuminati wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 3:43 am
It’s pretty simple really. Count the Order AoE melee/ranged classes vs Destro. Then count the Order melee/ranged burst classes vs Destro.
That will show you why Destro wins more in open/cities and Order wins 6v6 tourneys. Take away some of the burst on Order and give them AoE, take away some of the AoE on Destro and give them burst.
Or just you know, nerf the aoe damage on the top classes instead of trying to balance things by buffing the weaker ones, which will eventually result in the ones who didn't get buffed complaining that they need more damage, and on and on. But thats just wishful thinking.
Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat
Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 5:25 am
by Starx
Illuminati wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 3:43 am
It’s pretty simply really. Count the Order AoE melee/ranged classes vs Destro. Then count the Order melee/ranged burst classes vs Destro.
That will show you why Destro wins more in open/cities and Order wins 6v6 tourneys. Take away some of the burst on Order and give them AoE, take away some of the AoE on Destro and give them burst.
Order doesn't win 6v6 because they have better burst. It comes down to 2 extremely OP comps order can run and the interactions w/ 3 abilities.
I'll start with what won the last tourney, double slayer. One skill to rule them all INEVITABLE DOOM. This is a skill I complained about when t3 was the cap on the server. It is hands down the absolute best skill in the game when it comes to removing challenge in 6v6 giving slayer a distinct advantage over all other DPS. It's an AoE skill, that is also so OP it's part of slayer ST rotation AND TO TOP IT OFF it's a DoT that counts as direct damage meaning it costs A SINGLE GCD. Meanwhile the next best thing in any classes kit to remove challenge is the 3 sec channel abilities like whirling axe on WL which can potentially remove guards before a burn in 1.5 seconds (you cancel it here too). Play WH/WE? Well have fun always dealing 30% less damage bc you class has no **** way of ever removing challenge.
Next up is ASW+WL. These DPS classes are virtually unkillable without champs challenge and good executes/strats by a destro team because both DPS can just pounce away and reset the fight. Destro doesn't have a 6v6 comp w/ 2 mobile DPS like this.
Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat
Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 6:28 am
by Vayra
Honestly, I think it's high time BWs advantages over Sorcs are nerfed (or Sorcs are buffed to compensate). Sorcs had ONE advantage over BWs in being able to get Infernal Wave to 0s CD with Chop Fasta, and that got nerfed quick on this server after BOs were given a CD decreaser (why they got that is a ??? all on its own). Was it strong? Hell yeah, but it was the only way sorcs could keep up with BW aoe spam and was reliant on specific group setups.
Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat
Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 6:31 am
by Starx
Word of Pain used to be a sorc exclusive skill, honestly the matchups would make a lot more sense if BW didn't have boiling blood.
Destro tears on the old bioware whatever forums back then were **** A M A Z I N G when BW got WoP. Good thing I was playing knight at the time.
Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat
Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 7:03 am
by Hiszp4n
Since BW is ginger, Sorc is a winner in this comparison imo. (Joke)
For real now, give sorc a self cleanse just like BWs have.
Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat
Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 9:27 am
by Hypernia
poisonedshotz wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 7:45 pm
1. RoF/detonate 50% radius increase (BW) vs surging pain/infernal wave 33% radius/range increase (Sorc)
Infernal Wave is instant cast damage that you can move, and which stacks. RoF can't be cast on top of each other and forces you to stand still. This is not a good tactic. And RoF actually doesn;t do that much damage in a serious 24v24 setting now that it doesn't stack
2. Backdraft skill (BW) vs triumphant blasting tactic (Sorc) are the equivalents? that give knockback
Backdraft is terrible, you shouldn't use it. AoE punts are the worst thing ever. It's only good in the very small circumstance that someone else gave everyone immunity, and then they clumped up.
3. Flashfire tactic (BW) vs ... Infernal Gift (Sorc) maybe?
Unfortunately this tactic is bugged to **** and only reduces CDs by half. I'm fine with these tactics being different, and I think the Sorc one is better anyway. Way more consistent.
4. 10s Armor buff (BW) vs 20s Resistances buff (Sorc)
Everyone runs armour pots and it doesn't stack.
5. Funnel Power (BW) vs more single target burst skill (Sorc)
Specifically in AoE you take the funnel power damage for every person you hit. The drawback is pretty large in the circumstances you are talking about. Again though, this is flavour and allows the classes to be different. I don't think it's as game-breaking as you are suggesting.
6. Cauterize (BW) vs Obsessive focus (Sorc)
It's good, not going to argue here.
7. Heal debuff and Ranged knockdown (BW) vs laser and 600 hp/15 second heal (Sorc)
The range KD isn't really that good. It's conditional on ignite and removes it. Unless you are soloing, it's better to spec for FBB instead. Generally I'd prefer the sorc option here.
I think there are other things here that Sorc gets that I would want on BW. For example, extra damage on Sear, or Infernal Wave - but there has to be differences between the classes, or we're just talking exact mirrors and that isn;t what this game is.
I think to be more productive we would need to compare specific builds against each other, because even if all the things you listed were advantages,
you can't have them all at the same time. It's fine for classes to have strong tools, if they have to choose between them.
So give me specific builds where BW is better (You didn't mention Burning Head for example) and we can compare.
Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat
Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 9:43 am
by Vayra
Hypernia wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 9:27 am
So give me specific builds where BW is better (You didn't mention Burning Head for example) and we can compare.
I don't really play BW much (read: I don't play BW at all on this server), but this build should have considerably higher AOE dps output than any comparable sorc build:
RoR.builders - Bright Wizard
Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat
Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 10:16 am
by Hypernia
For keeps that's okay. I'd probably swap Fiery Reserves (I'd rather juggle my CDs manually) for Crown of Fire for the better proc, but it's fine.
Is the damage not comparable to this?
RoR.builders - Sorcerer
Are we talking about keep sieges or 24v24 here? Different build required depending on the scale I would say
I don't see where this 'extra damage' is coming from aside from Flashfire and a bigger radius on Rain of Fire. As far as I can see the tooltip damages on all the main skills are the same, the damage formulas work the same. So we're basically comparing flashfire to infernal gift? Extra radius on Rain of Fire is nice in keep defenses, but even then they don't stack and the entrances are sufficiently small that it's not really a useful skill outside killing pugs who aren't being healed.