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Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

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Drys
Posts: 102

Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

Post#41 » Fri May 22, 2020 8:26 pm

I would just be happy with the expanded radius on PoS given the current meta for keeps and forts.
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Drystal - WE 40/5X
Drystmar - DOK 40/4X
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Ramlaen
Posts: 92

Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

Post#42 » Fri May 22, 2020 9:58 pm

poisonedshotz wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:45 pm
And its not even close

1. RoF/detonate 50% radius increase (BW) vs surging pain/infernal wave 33% radius/range increase (Sorc)

For those who forgot elementary school math, increasing radius by a factor increases the area by the factor squared. With this tactic, RoF get 125% more area than PoS
Sorc has an non-equivalent tactic that increases the radius of surging pain by 33% and distance of infernal wave by 33%. The area of surging pain (circular) is increased by about 77% while the aoe of infernal wave is increased by 33%. Infernal wave doesn't benefit from being able to clear behind walls, so the range increase is really only useful in open areas.
The massive size of RoF allows BW to easily clear funnels behind any doorway due to the massive radius when compared to Sorc PoS. If you play both sides you'll notice how easily RoF can deter players from trying to funnel, while how easy it is to move out of a PoS.
With this tactic, RoF get 125% more area than PoS.
I notice you glossed over how large the AoE of Infernal Wave is >before< accounting for a 33% increase in size.
Ramlaen, Longhaul, Wolfnrock, Grashop

poisonedshotz
Posts: 27

Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

Post#43 » Fri May 22, 2020 10:49 pm

Ramlaen wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:58 pm
poisonedshotz wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:45 pm
And its not even close

1. RoF/detonate 50% radius increase (BW) vs surging pain/infernal wave 33% radius/range increase (Sorc)

For those who forgot elementary school math, increasing radius by a factor increases the area by the factor squared. With this tactic, RoF get 125% more area than PoS
Sorc has an non-equivalent tactic that increases the radius of surging pain by 33% and distance of infernal wave by 33%. The area of surging pain (circular) is increased by about 77% while the aoe of infernal wave is increased by 33%. Infernal wave doesn't benefit from being able to clear behind walls, so the range increase is really only useful in open areas.
The massive size of RoF allows BW to easily clear funnels behind any doorway due to the massive radius when compared to Sorc PoS. If you play both sides you'll notice how easily RoF can deter players from trying to funnel, while how easy it is to move out of a PoS.
With this tactic, RoF get 125% more area than PoS.
I notice you glossed over how large the AoE of Infernal Wave is >before< accounting for a 33% increase in size.
I notice you gloss over my entire post to make a comment on something only half relevant. The extra range does not help sorc hit 30 feet around a wall. Like I said before, the top specs of both classes are close range bombers, getting more range is marginally useful. No one on order has ever complained about infernal wave being too long, simply because its not that strong. RoF on the other hand...

If it makes you feel better, we could trade skills and tactics. Give Sorc 125% more aoe on PoS and give BW infernal wave and tactic. I guarantee you if that change was made order would be whining.

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adamthelc
Posts: 832

Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

Post#44 » Fri May 22, 2020 11:41 pm

I think destro would be the ones complaining about that trade.

teiloh
Posts: 287

Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

Post#45 » Sat May 23, 2020 5:44 am

Sorcs are far superior, end of story.

Sorc can get -360 to -720 spirit (Magus + Tactic), their primary damage, AT RANGE, from Magus. Max Ele debuff for Order is 260ish and requires a Knight to be in melee range. This applies to several key abilities (SS/Cascade/Gloomburst) where BW equivalents don't get this. This is a 10-70% DPS difference from this disparity alone. POS doesn't stack so the +ROF radius is irrelevant to the outcome of ORvR unless you're trying to reach around corners and tickle people. However, Shadow Knives does stack and it does follow people for some time, and Destro can debuff -720 Corp resist. Don't stack your POS and spread them out instead..

Infernal Wave + Ice Spikes far outperforms Flame Breath and Detonate, ever since Detonate got nerfed to **** over 10 years ago.

AV heals for a LOT more than 600 a cast. Gloom of Night is basically a stronger, ranged ID.

For realm synergy Sorcs also have Tapping the Dark (for an excellent defensive buff) and access to far more CD decrease. Sorcs can even get -720 Corp as well, from BO + Zealot with Sweeping Disgorgement. This greatly enhances all Sorc rotations, ST and AOE. Combined, a Sorc should be doing 30-100% more damage than a BW simply because they hit far softer resists and have perma CD decrease.

When it comes to the opposing realm, Sorc doesn't have to deal with Khaine's Withdrawal which removes every single debuff all Order DPS except WL can cast. You don't have to deal with Squigs jumping in to spray CD increaser no matter where you are. Destro has tons more viable AOE from SH + BO + Chosen on top of other viable AOE builds. Magus AOE is far superior to Engi. Sorc also doesn't have to deal with a million damage reflects (Loudmouth, Dire Shielding, Discordant Flux, 2x Misdirection Classes).

BW is mostly very good at stomping noob Destro who don't know how to employ countless very easy counters to them.

Starx
Posts: 281

Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

Post#46 » Sat May 23, 2020 6:58 am

Stop reading when you said magus and sorc spirit debuff stack :pensive:

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wachlarz
Posts: 447

Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

Post#47 » Sat May 23, 2020 8:14 am

Sad that ppl see and carry about only aoe. In pvp game mostly U dont win by doing more dmg. U win by stun in good time and apply healdebuff. And Sorc cant make this. In blob fight its not important but in small scale its way way more important.

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wiscel
Posts: 434

Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

Post#48 » Sat May 23, 2020 8:22 am

I'm very happy with my sorc even though BW has slightly better abilities. Only things I would like to see for my sorc are a 'remove snare', and maybe an instant 'disarm' ability.

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poisonedshotz
Posts: 27

Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

Post#49 » Sat May 23, 2020 8:58 am

teiloh wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 5:44 am
Sorcs are far superior, end of story.

Sorc can get -360 to -720 spirit (Magus + Tactic), their primary damage, AT RANGE, from Magus. Max Ele debuff for Order is 260ish and requires a Knight to be in melee range. This applies to several key abilities (SS/Cascade/Gloomburst) where BW equivalents don't get this. This is a 10-70% DPS difference from this disparity alone. POS doesn't stack so the +ROF radius is irrelevant to the outcome of ORvR unless you're trying to reach around corners and tickle people. However, Shadow Knives does stack and it does follow people for some time, and Destro can debuff -720 Corp resist. Don't stack your POS and spread them out instead..

Infernal Wave + Ice Spikes far outperforms Flame Breath and Detonate, ever since Detonate got nerfed to **** over 10 years ago.

AV heals for a LOT more than 600 a cast. Gloom of Night is basically a stronger, ranged ID.

For realm synergy Sorcs also have Tapping the Dark (for an excellent defensive buff) and access to far more CD decrease. Sorcs can even get -720 Corp as well, from BO + Zealot with Sweeping Disgorgement. This greatly enhances all Sorc rotations, ST and AOE. Combined, a Sorc should be doing 30-100% more damage than a BW simply because they hit far softer resists and have perma CD decrease.

When it comes to the opposing realm, Sorc doesn't have to deal with Khaine's Withdrawal which removes every single debuff all Order DPS except WL can cast. You don't have to deal with Squigs jumping in to spray CD increaser no matter where you are. Destro has tons more viable AOE from SH + BO + Chosen on top of other viable AOE builds. Magus AOE is far superior to Engi. Sorc also doesn't have to deal with a million damage reflects (Loudmouth, Dire Shielding, Discordant Flux, 2x Misdirection Classes).

BW is mostly very good at stomping noob Destro who don't know how to employ countless very easy counters to them.
Ice spikes is a low DMG dot, if you die to it you are probably stomping noob order who don't know how to employ countless very easy counters.
Shadow knives is a tickle skill just like RoF according to your logic.
Why the **** are you bring up other classes like magus, msh, chosen, BO, dok. If you think those are OP then make a post about nerfing them. This post is about sorc and bw.

You're being disingenuous when you claim 30%-100% more damage with synergies. City DPS score never reflect this, only when sorc gets good group synergy they match BW dps. Otherwise in any non-optimal groups BW > sorc

The rain of fire AoE is so massive, that it destroys Destro funnels in both forts and keeps easily. The non-tank Destro have to stand an extra 10 feet back from where a non tank order would have to stand. In forts, RoF through the postern is big enough to entirely clear the left side of the main funnel, while PoS isn't big enough to reach. This is not a "noob stomping" phenomenon. AoE pressure is huge to zone people, decrease healer AP, force people to leave funnels to heal, and so on.
The rain of fire AoE is so massive, it covers the entire ramparts of the walls in keeps outer wall. This is huge because healers don't have a safe spot to stand, which means the Destro ranged DPS can't safely stand on wall. PoS can't do the same.
Incase you forgot, RoF has 2.25x the area of PoS.
What other class and their mirror have numbers on one of their MAIN skills differ by 2.25x
Last edited by poisonedshotz on Sat May 23, 2020 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Starx
Posts: 281

Re: Bright Wizards are way better than Sorcs in the main part of the game, large scale combat

Post#50 » Sat May 23, 2020 9:01 am

I'd trade literally any dot magus has for ice spikes in a heart beat :pensive:
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