From the first fight we know it's over.

[Hypernia]

I think there are two things that play into this a lot:

1) There's very little randomness in 24v24 at the top level. Pugs love to talk about **** like, 'let's flank them' or 'distract them while we go on their healers'. Sorry, at a certain point with voice comms everyone knows where everyone else group is. You essentially just have to facetank and test my damage output versus your healing output, and your damage output versus my team's healing output. Teams that focus well, have strong healers who can max output under pressure, and can coordinate their morales (especially defensive ones) well will beat weaker teams that can't do that almost every time, simply because there isn't that much randomness built into the game to allow weaker teams to overcome stronger ones through luck.

You literally have to outplay the other team in the situation to win. Which is why when stronger premades come up against PUGs or weaker ones the result is decided in the first fight - there isn't realistically time during that encounter for the losing team to improve enough to gain parity. It's also the case that when our alliance faces the better Destro guilds - the fights can be really really long with nobody wiping, because our WBs have both learnt staying power. But less organised teams will crumble really quickly once their healers get under pressure. At that point it becomes a contest of effective burst, morale bombs, chain killing enough healers to disrupt rez cycles etc. Versus weaker teams it goes from 1 party dies > everyone mindlessly retreats into a choke > full wipe too fast for there to be any counterplay back at us.

2) Citys happen at different and unpredictable times, which means even with decent alliances you have to fill from /5 - and so you always have some random elements that haven't played with you before. I do think one of the ways to promote a strong WBvWB scene would be organised city timing once a week, where people know what time to log and can plan for it. As it is, we have to see who woke up early, or stayed up late, or wasn't working at the time a city happens, and so you always have to fill from /5 or friendlists to actually get a complete WB.

[Gargis]

Like you really need me to tell you how all this is going to play out? Lets spare ourselves the back and forth condescension. The game is low population. There are not enough ppl on Order side willing to make sacrifices in order to make proper war bands for city play. Maybe 2-3 if we all got our **** together. Its not going to happen though, too many ppl play during different time zones even within the same guild.

There are many forces which impede the above. Desire to play a certain class, and even a particular spec, many classes not up to wb play despite the best set up prep, time constraints, etc. Ever look closely at Order wb classes in pug play in ORVR? Did you think that was going to magically change when cities rolled around. Its a mess and sad, not much to be done.

Why do think that ppl do not want to play tanks on Order? Whos fault is that? Player, dev, me, you? Does it matter? Not at this point, its too far gone. Check out 5. on Order sometime and look at the spam for needed tanks to pull off a Gunbad or BS run. Order can't even get enough tanks to make a 6 man, wb play is pie in the sky.

Relax, this is how its going to pan out. Order is going to pull the same ol BS. Maybe the pop will continue to go down, maybe not. Ppl will get geared, or not. Maybe they will say F it and stop going into cities because they see the futility of it all.

Try to garner some fun somewhere and move on.

[Martok]

Try to garner some fun somewhere and move on.

I hear Hello Kitty On-line is back.

[Zxul]

but don't get frustrated because you're losing vs people who are putting the effort in to get on discord, organise strategies and bring their A game, whilst you sit back, queue up and expect free wins.

As someone who goes to city on heal dok, in premades, lot of time guild ones- what effort lol? Discord is free, and lets face it most of the time even in premades used for casual chat and not for something useful. Strategies- all the talk about those is nice, but again lets face it there ain't that many strategies that the game allows- mostly its a choice between "more aoe pressure" and "coordinate to burst priority targets". A game? Realistically the A game is "don't bring the class, unless its meta class/spec".

Last city I was at, not a single person in my party died. Was it because of some grand strategy, outplaying the opponents, and doing our best? Haha no, the other side was made of nonmeta classes and didn't had enough healers (since those went to meta premades), the result was predictable.

And for that matter do premade players even have A game? Like Alfa1986 posted here, hahahaha no, solo roaming I can't think of any premade player which doesn't dies very fast if he runs into me solo. Premades ain't about being good- its about combining meta classes in 2/2/2, and looking for solo targets/pug while investing as little effort as possible.

[Kaelang]

but don't get frustrated because you're losing vs people who are putting the effort in to get on discord, organise strategies and bring their A game, whilst you sit back, queue up and expect free wins.

As someone who goes to city on heal dok, in premades, lot of time guild ones- what effort lol? Discord is free, and lets face it most of the time even in premades used for casual chat and not for something useful. Strategies- all the talk about those is nice, but again lets face it there ain't that many strategies that the game allows- mostly its a choice between "more aoe pressure" and "coordinate to burst priority targets". A game? Realistically the A game is "don't bring the class, unless its meta class/spec".

So, just to confirm.

You’ve joined a guild. You’re playing a viable spec. You’re playing in premade content. You’re using voice communications. You’re building a 2/2/2. Your 2/2/2 is composed of the meta builds.

Yet you somehow feel that you’ve put no effort in, as opposed to someone running into a portal by themselves.

[sogeou]

If you want to pug the end-game content, that's absolutely fine. But complaining about losing vs premades, when cities are the top tier content is silly. This is an MMORPG, a group game, and the meta revolves around 24v24 - which, you guessed it, is perfect for cities.

As a pug, you are still getting participation rewards for ending each round, but don't get frustrated because you're losing vs people who are putting the effort in to get on discord, organise strategies and bring their A game, whilst you sit back, queue up and expect free wins.

This thread appears constantly, after every city, and the bottom line is simple. Nobody is forcing you to queue solo. The game is better with guilds anyway.

Find some people to play with, queue as 24, have more fun, get more rewards.

Fingers in your ear I am guessing. What is wrong with only putting a group of 24 vs another 24? That is by far the best solutions, it gives a better fight and more enjoyable city for both sides. What is wrong with making sure the instance is balanced, if one side has a 6 man, try to match another one in that instance, same for a 12 man.

Reason this is a problem is some classes can't get into warbands, is that their fault for playing the class they picked? Order had like 60 tanks on last night for city while having 3-4 times the amount of DPS. Not sure how you want balance for 6v6 and put so much effort into it, but not end game content.

I for one don't care, I will take my 3 loss tokens and get out. City is not really fun, don't need much else for it. The new bag system is better than going to the city.

[Kaelang]

If you want to pug the end-game content, that's absolutely fine. But complaining about losing vs premades, when cities are the top tier content is silly. This is an MMORPG, a group game, and the meta revolves around 24v24 - which, you guessed it, is perfect for cities.

As a pug, you are still getting participation rewards for ending each round, but don't get frustrated because you're losing vs people who are putting the effort in to get on discord, organise strategies and bring their A game, whilst you sit back, queue up and expect free wins.

This thread appears constantly, after every city, and the bottom line is simple. Nobody is forcing you to queue solo. The game is better with guilds anyway.

Find some people to play with, queue as 24, have more fun, get more rewards.

Fingers in your ear I am guessing. What is wrong with only putting a group of 24 vs another 24? That is by far the best solutions, it gives a better fight and more enjoyable city for both sides. What is wrong with making sure the instance is balanced, if one side has a 6 man, try to match another one in that instance, same for a 12 man.

Reason this is a problem is some classes can't get into warbands, is that their fault for playing the class they picked? Order had like 60 tanks on last night for city while having 3-4 times the amount of DPS. Not sure how you want balance for 6v6 and put so much effort into it, but not end game content.

I for one don't care, I will take my 3 loss tokens and get out. City is not really fun, don't need much else for it. The new bag system is better than going to the city.

Nothing to do with fingers in my ear - I'm openly reviewing page by page for some solid feedback, and it's providing.

On paper - there's nothing wrong with pugs v pugs and 24v24. But break it down into groups who queue as 6, groups who queue as 12, groups who queue as 18. Solo players who need to backfill those groups of players, for example 18, where are the other 6 coming from?

Let's say we pull 18 premade, and a 6 premade - that means we would need to have a 18, and a 6, on the opposite side. The queue system at the moment is already under scrutiny, as players aren't confident they'll get a pop if they queue at specific times (Destruction). Adding additional variables into the queue system based on people wanting to pug the content, is where it doesn't make sense to me.

[Zxul]

but don't get frustrated because you're losing vs people who are putting the effort in to get on discord, organise strategies and bring their A game, whilst you sit back, queue up and expect free wins.

As someone who goes to city on heal dok, in premades, lot of time guild ones- what effort lol? Discord is free, and lets face it most of the time even in premades used for casual chat and not for something useful. Strategies- all the talk about those is nice, but again lets face it there ain't that many strategies that the game allows- mostly its a choice between "more aoe pressure" and "coordinate to burst priority targets". A game? Realistically the A game is "don't bring the class, unless its meta class/spec".

So, just to confirm.

You’ve joined a guild. You’re playing a viable spec. You’re playing in premade content. You’re using voice communications. You’re building a 2/2/2. Your 2/2/2 is composed of the meta builds.

Yet you somehow feel that you’ve put no effort in, as opposed to someone running into a portal by themselves.

Not only that, but I'm specifically doing that since its a zero effort way to get currently the top gear. Since in that meta 2/2/2 I know the chances are we will stomp the opposition, with my only real effort being to pump up heal numbers to get more contribution for higher bag chances.

The difference is that unlike other posters, I don't claim it to be an "effort", I admit it to being what it is- a way to get the best rewards for the least effort.

[sogeou]

If you want to pug the end-game content, that's absolutely fine. But complaining about losing vs premades, when cities are the top tier content is silly. This is an MMORPG, a group game, and the meta revolves around 24v24 - which, you guessed it, is perfect for cities.

As a pug, you are still getting participation rewards for ending each round, but don't get frustrated because you're losing vs people who are putting the effort in to get on discord, organise strategies and bring their A game, whilst you sit back, queue up and expect free wins.

This thread appears constantly, after every city, and the bottom line is simple. Nobody is forcing you to queue solo. The game is better with guilds anyway.

Find some people to play with, queue as 24, have more fun, get more rewards.

Fingers in your ear I am guessing. What is wrong with only putting a group of 24 vs another 24? That is by far the best solutions, it gives a better fight and more enjoyable city for both sides. What is wrong with making sure the instance is balanced, if one side has a 6 man, try to match another one in that instance, same for a 12 man.

Reason this is a problem is some classes can't get into warbands, is that their fault for playing the class they picked? Order had like 60 tanks on last night for city while having 3-4 times the amount of DPS. Not sure how you want balance for 6v6 and put so much effort into it, but not end game content.

I for one don't care, I will take my 3 loss tokens and get out. City is not really fun, don't need much else for it. The new bag system is better than going to the city.

Nothing to do with fingers in my ear - I'm openly reviewing page by page for some solid feedback, and it's providing.

On paper - there's nothing wrong with pugs v pugs and 24v24. But break it down into groups who queue as 6, groups who queue as 12, groups who queue as 18. Solo players who need to backfill those groups of players, for example 18, where are the other 6 coming from?

Let's say we pull 18 premade, and a 6 premade - that means we would need to have a 18, and a 6, on the opposite side. The queue system at the moment is already under scrutiny, as players aren't confident they'll get a pop if they queue at specific times (Destruction). Adding additional variables into the queue system based on people wanting to pug the content, is where it doesn't make sense to me.

It would be easy to put something in place, would it be perfect ? No, if you want to get into the city 100% as destro, that is just not possible as they are the zerg side.

In your example putting a premade of 18 vs 6 six mans or 3 and back fill would be great. If they made changes and pushed if you want to make sure you join a city JOIN a group of six. That is more manageable than 24.

We can't have everything at once, and people will always try to take the easy way out, ie going into Q late, have a premade of 18 to duck a premade of 24 etc.

[Detangler]

How is it the "zerg side" is always getting pushed to IC while Altdorf sits at 5*?