MSH needs some attention

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Gurf
Posts: 136

Re: MSH needs some attention

Post#11 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:05 pm

xanderous wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:40 am

Just my thoughts, i really enjoy the class but it is definitely under performing when compared to other classes in the same field, class does not even have a CC break ability, some stats don't convert over to melee armor like "reduce chance to dodge" to "reduced chance to parry" Ballistic skill tactic not converting to strength and only good damage morale is M4 which is great when you have it whilst others classes have great M2's so their their overall ability damage output should compensate for that.

But however this is not a please buff MSH thread, I just hope that devs have not forgotten about the class and could please take a look at the issues i highlighted
Compared to which classes is the MSH underperforming against? From the other side in my opinion MSH is right now pretty much the strongest class on Destro side, it has it all: good aoe damage, decent survivability, lots of cc and escape options. I assumed the class was next in line for a nerf rather than a buff. Last time I played city all the MSH were way out on top of both damage and deathblows in the instance, far ahead of the proper damage classes like Choppa and Sorc who have to exchange some risks in their mechanic to put out damage lower than the MSH.

Im up for fixing any broken skills but buffing the MSH above its already high level sounds like a crazy idea to me, the devs would be better off focusing on the many other classes which have broken skills or outright useless skills. Just look at some of the DPS and Zealot skills, many of them have probably never even been used by most of the players they are so bad or just completely useless

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Illuminati
Posts: 172

Re: MSH needs some attention

Post#12 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:18 pm

Gurf wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:05 pm
xanderous wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:40 am

Just my thoughts, i really enjoy the class but it is definitely under performing when compared to other classes in the same field, class does not even have a CC break ability, some stats don't convert over to melee armor like "reduce chance to dodge" to "reduced chance to parry" Ballistic skill tactic not converting to strength and only good damage morale is M4 which is great when you have it whilst others classes have great M2's so their their overall ability damage output should compensate for that.

But however this is not a please buff MSH thread, I just hope that devs have not forgotten about the class and could please take a look at the issues i highlighted
Compared to which classes is the MSH underperforming against? From the other side in my opinion MSH is right now pretty much the strongest class on Destro side, it has it all: good aoe damage, decent survivability, lots of cc and escape options. I assumed the class was next in line for a nerf rather than a buff. Last time I played city all the MSH were way out on top of both damage and deathblows in the instance, far ahead of the proper damage classes like Choppa and Sorc who have to exchange some risks in their mechanic to put out damage lower than the MSH.

Im up for fixing any broken skills but buffing the MSH above its already high level sounds like a crazy idea to me, the devs would be better off focusing on the many other classes which have broken skills or outright useless skills. Just look at some of the DPS and Zealot skills, many of them have probably never even been used by most of the players they are so bad or just completely useless
Wrong. It doesn't have ST burst unless you dare bring out a pet with extremely low health pool, and still has mediocre AA damage. The core fundamental issues are Order has more ST burst classes and now comparable AoE effectiveness (stationary = mobile AoE effectiveness).

Think about a WL for a moment, 1. can buff its own damage (armor debuffs) 2. heal debuffs 3. Mobility 4. root/snare immunity where the mSH cannot do any of those. As OP as you think mSH is, multiply it by a factor and you have the WL.
————————————————
Destro: Killamanjaro (80+ Choppa) / Killamanjaroo (70+ DoK) / Unsworn (70+ Chosen) / Illuminatii (60+ Blackguard) / Killaman (80+ Squig)
Order: ?

Bugs reported: 6

lyncher12
Posts: 200

Re: MSH needs some attention

Post#13 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:24 pm

no one white lion ever pounced me and increased my cooldowns that i have to rely on some random to cleanse

Illuminati
Posts: 172

Re: MSH needs some attention

Post#14 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:31 pm

no one mSH ever pounced me and armor debuffed me, heal debuffed me, pulled me, interrupted me that I have to rely on some random to cleanse /save me.
————————————————
Destro: Killamanjaro (80+ Choppa) / Killamanjaroo (70+ DoK) / Unsworn (70+ Chosen) / Illuminatii (60+ Blackguard) / Killaman (80+ Squig)
Order: ?

Bugs reported: 6

Fenris78
Posts: 158

Re: MSH needs some attention

Post#15 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:41 pm

Comparing an hybrid melee/range dps with pure mDPS or rDPS, and wishing that it will perform as good as them is plain stupid.

What, you don't have the toolkit of a WL and a Slayer ? The WL ans Slayer don't have yours, but will deal more damage in melee, that's their purpose.
Same for other specialized dps classes. Your can't simply mirror abilities and hope you'll get the best of all, or the class will simply become the only best class and everyone will stop playing others because no point anymore...

Some classes got better toolkits than others (mSH are one of them, obviously), but that doesnt mean they HAVE to outperform all other classes with raw dmg/heal/resistances.
You can't have the best of the best in every situation, and winn 100% of the time without efforts or teamwork.

No class should have as many tools as mSH got (11 core skills in one tree, twice as much as every other class in game - DoK/WP middle tree dont count), AND deal as much damage it consistently top charts.
I dont see WL or Slayers topping charts as often BW/Slayers do, but I see most top dmg being topped by Choppas/Mara/Sorc/SH.

An hybrid and polyvalent dps class than can do both melee and range should not be the best in one of those categories, at least not in pretty much all situation. It's called balancing a game.
Last edited by Fenris78 on Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lyncher12
Posts: 200

Re: MSH needs some attention

Post#16 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:44 pm

Illuminati wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:31 pm
no one mSH ever pounced me and armor debuffed me, heal debuffed me, pulled me, interrupted me that I have to rely on some random to cleanse /save me.
i cant imagine dying to a solo wl as anything other than a sorc tbh

darklord360
Posts: 6

Re: MSH needs some attention

Post#17 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:44 pm

Well by reworking Squigherder i thought they meant the RANGED Squig, the Melee Squig right now performs fine. Ranged squigs are underpar especially since SW rework and need to be given a massive boost to make them viable again :

1) Triple DoT stacking on Yer Bleedin'
2) Shootin wif da wind tactic removed, Run n Shoot - Rotten Arrer - Yer Bleedin - Not so Fast on 100 ft range.
3) Not so Fast ability will now also knockdown your target, 20 sec CD - Order have TWO ranged KD classes, Destro needs atleast one. Move from Core ability to Mastery slot 2 in Quick Shootin, move Run Away to Big shootin Mastery slot 2.
4) Shrapnel Arrer - core ability - toggle effect 50-250dmg procs on direct damage abilities at extra 15 AP point cost
5) increase base damage Finish em Off, Choking Arrer, What Blocka and Not So Fast to match Plink.
6) New Tactic - Quick Shootin' Mastery slot #5, Warpforged Arrers - Path of Quick Shootin abilities will now penetrate 25% armor.

I realize that one must invest heavily into Quick Shootin and not be able to take the best abilities from that tree and also have Finish Em Off. The ST stationary spec may need a buff to provide an alternative and third viable spec for the SH. The Shrapnel arrer will provide that by making lots of Arrers do more, Finish Em off to do more base damage but Poison Arrer/Explodin Arrer still very lackluster.

Omegus
Posts: 477

Re: MSH needs some attention

Post#18 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:46 pm

xanderous wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:40 am
This is why you combine it with Choppas with Chop Fasta and/or Black Orcs with Waaagh. The cooldown reducer gives you access to almost non-stop AOE from Big Bouncing and your higher damage ST abilites are available more often. Without support the melee squig is not, and it seems was never designed to be, a pure AOE class.

TBH I'm not looking forward to the RSH changes. I have a feeling I'll be losing access to 100ft mobile damage (mobile AOE damage too) which was one of the things I liked about the career. Yes it took 2 tactics, no it wasn't that amazing, but running around as a little git spamming AOE arrows was fun.
Zomega: RR8x Zealot
Addons: CityFix v1.0

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Fenris78
Posts: 158

Re: MSH needs some attention

Post#19 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:50 pm

Omegus wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:46 pm
TBH I'm not looking forward to the RSH changes. I have a feeling I'll be losing access to 100ft mobile damage (mobile AOE damage too) which was one of the things I liked about the career. Yes it took 2 tactics, no it wasn't that amazing, but running around as a little git spamming AOE arrows was fun.
Exactly, and I'm very sad after the Powerful Draw nerf on the SW ; pea shooter, but was the only fun thing to do with it honestly... :/

Illuminati
Posts: 172

Re: MSH needs some attention

Post#20 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:50 pm

Fenris78 wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:41 pm
Comparing an hybrid melee/range dps with pure mDPS or rDPS, and wishing that it will perform as good as them is plain stupid.

What, you don't have the toolkit of a WL and a Slayer ? The WL ans Slayer don't have yours, but will deal more damage in melee, that's their purpose.
Same for other specialized dps classes. Your can't simply mirror abilities and hope you'll get the best of all, or the class will simply become the only best class and everyone will stop playing others because no point anymore...

Some classes got better toolkits than others (mSH are one of them, obviously), but that doesnt mean they HAVE to outperform all other classes with raw dmg/heal/resistances.
You can't have the best of the best in every situation, and winn 100% of the time without efforts or teamwork.

No class should have as many tools as mSH got (11 core skills in one tree, double than 80% of every other class in game), AND deal as much damage it consistently top charts.
I dont see WL or Slayers topping charts as often BW/Slayers do, but I see most top dmg being topped by Choppas/Mara/Sorc/SH.

An hybrid and polyvalent dps class than can do both melee and range should not be the best in one of those categories, at least not in pretty much all situation. It's called balancing a game.
Its because Destro doesn't have another class to compare OP overtuned Order classes to....

You have players on Order calling out their own class (WL), naming them 'Imbalanced', etc. and still no changes. The only thing left to do is push for tweaks to the classes that can stand up or quit so don't fault people for hoping the game balance gets some sanity to extend their playtime. I agree that mSH shouldn't be better at AoE DPS than a Choppa, but that is because of Choppa poor utility, lack of things like ID, etc. which has nothing to do with mSH and more to do with improving Choppa.
————————————————
Destro: Killamanjaro (80+ Choppa) / Killamanjaroo (70+ DoK) / Unsworn (70+ Chosen) / Illuminatii (60+ Blackguard) / Killaman (80+ Squig)
Order: ?

Bugs reported: 6

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