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Illuminati
Posts: 172

Re: WL DMG Screenshot

Post#51 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:33 pm

Orkschnitzel182 wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:23 pm
Foofmonger wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:57 pm
doxifera wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:48 pm
This circus lasts for more than two years, how much has been written about this - WL needs a nerf, no one speaks about nerf to the ground, at least cut the DMG by 20% and remove the pounces or pull (too much for one class)
WLs had pounce and pull from 2008, so 12 years, and honestly, they had both when they were underpowered, so that is just not the issue. We have direct evidence that WLs can be balanced with pounce/pull and "it's not too much for one class".

WLs actually seem pretty fine on this server to me. It's basically the rest of the MDPS that is lagging, besides Slayer. WE/WHs just have huge identity issues at the moment, Marauder's are good at AoE spam but they lack mobility so nobody plays their burst specs, Choppas have some overall utility issues outside of leaning on GTDC. The reality is not that "WL are OP" it's that "WLs and Slayers are currently the only two MDPS classes that can really do the job of MDPS on this server and are actually scary, with the * that the same applies somewhat to AoE Maras/Choppas, but not to the same degree).

Regardless, this thread is a joke in an of itself. The only thing this thread proves is that the OP needs to learn to play his shaman. Secrets posted the clip from his viewpoint and yea, that shaman deserved to die with his complete lack of situational awareness, the fact that this was a 2 on 1 fight and he didn't even acknolwdge the SW who was shooting at him, the fact that he didn't detaunt at all, that he got jumped on without panning his camera or attacking the WL (Secrets), etc... this just proves that yes, if you are a complete ass player who is putting in 0 effort and get jumped on by a 2v1 from two dps classes that know what they are doing, you will die. Wow what a shocking revelation. I could have done the same thing to a crappy DPS AM on my Marauder, heck you could do the same thing to a crappy DPS AM on a Sorc, a Choppa, a "insert class here". Looks like if you don't detaunt, don't kite, dont heal yourself, don't pan your camera, and have the reaction speed of a dying tortoise you probably won't have a good time playing a DPS healer.
The wl was in my back so i got jumped/pulled and stunned.
I died in the stun you can acutally see in the Chat that i got stunned.
I think we can close this thread, all i want to Do is Show numbers of burst a wl can do.

@secrets: yes you were 3 people but i counted your dmg so the numbers are right.
If the sw used a skill that pumps your dmg than a apologies because i dont know all the sw skills.
But thx for the Video i acutally Shows that i if you dont See the wl so you can detaunt bubble etc that there isnt a lot to do because you get bursted realy Hard.

I would also like to mention what i wrote in my first post.
Dont nerf it to oblivion just a bit.
It not unreasonable to post what you posted. High mobility/utility moves shouldn't hit that hard. Heck, why can't they make a slight tweak to pounce damage and see how it goes (the SH version is crap damage comparatively) thereby increasing the amount of time it takes to get a target to 50% and susceptible to executes. A small change like that (literally a .5 sec difference) may give opponents a chance to react.
————————————————
Destro: Killamanjaro (80+ Choppa) / Killamanjaroo (70+ DoK) / Unsworn (70+ Chosen) / Illuminatii (60+ Blackguard) / Killaman (80+ Squig)
Order: ?

Bugs reported: 6

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Kobra
Suspended
Posts: 126

Re: WL DMG Screenshot

Post#52 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:38 pm

Orkschnitzel182 wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:23 pm
The wl was in my back so i got jumped/pulled and stunned.
I died in the stun you can acutally see in the Chat that i got stunned.
I think we can close this thread, all i want to Do is Show numbers of burst a wl can do.
In the video, he's talking, smacking some random keys, possibly even cooking a burger back there. It's not like it takes any effort, management, secret sauce rotations or try hard. The sound in the video are really just a couple keys being smacked. If we're turning the game into a face roll across the keyboard to 'Rekt' people, then why not just say so, and we can all stop wasting our valuable time? (and time, to me, is worth far more than money because I have more money than time)

But yes, the perpetual stun only adds to the insult of the burst. You had no chance. Adding armor wouldn't matter. Armor pots wouldn't matter. Even pre-casting wouldn't matter because any hots wouldn't have time to 'tick'. You'd be dead before more than 1-3 ticks max, and those ticks, even with high WP/HP/CRIT absolutely will not matter. Now toss in the SW long range long duration KD, then the lion pull while you are flat like a board, and welp - that's the state of the game. Marauder pull has never worked. I suspect if some folks played Marauder, they'd fix it properly, and also give Marauders a proper charge/rush/pounce.

I quit RoR for about a year. Back then WL complaints were common. Today, they are even more common. That was quite surprising to me on my return from a long hiatus. :roll:
Last edited by Kobra on Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
StrongUn
Posts: 224

Re: WL DMG Screenshot

Post#53 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:39 pm

satanicomoderno wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:38 pm
Oh no! mSH makes damage and kill order healers babies! Lets nerf this! HOw come a Destro classe kill anything!?

If you're dying for mSH the problem is you, not the class. Learn to play and then you won't die like you're crying.

Fixed.

:roll:

Gracias, de nada :D
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Foofmonger
Posts: 520

Re: WL DMG Screenshot

Post#54 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:56 pm

Kobra wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:38 pm
Orkschnitzel182 wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:23 pm
The wl was in my back so i got jumped/pulled and stunned.
I died in the stun you can acutally see in the Chat that i got stunned.
I think we can close this thread, all i want to Do is Show numbers of burst a wl can do.
In the video, he's talking, smacking some random keys, possibly even cooking a burger back there. It's not like it takes any effort, management, secret sauce rotations or try hard. The sound in the video are really just a couple keys being smacked. If we're turning the game into a face roll across the keyboard to 'Rekt' people, then why not just say so, and we can all stop wasting our valuable time? (and time, to me, is worth far more than money because I have more money than time)

But yes, the perpetual stun only adds to the insult of the burst. You had no chance. Adding armor wouldn't matter. Armor pots wouldn't matter. Even pre-casting wouldn't matter because any hots wouldn't have time to 'tick'. You'd be dead before more than 1-3 ticks max, and those ticks, even with high WP/HP/CRIT absolutely will not matter. Now toss in the SW long range long duration KD, then the lion pull while you are flat like a board, and welp - that's the state of the game. Marauder pull has never worked. I suspect if some folks played Marauder, they'd fix it properly, and also give Marauders a proper charge/rush/pounce.

I quit RoR for about a year. Back then WL complaints were common. Today, they are even more common. That was quite surprising to me on my return from a long hiatus. :roll:
The hyperbole is real.

In the video, he's also attacking a shaman who hasn't panned his camera and isn't even aware he's about to be attacked. He didn't need to put any effort into killing this shaman, frankly because the shaman was basically afk.

I'm sorry, but as a Destro MDPS player, I would have done the same thing, in the same time, to a DPS AM. This is not about the WL, and about if you run out into the lake with 0 situational awareness and let people gank you, you will die. I routinely gank players like this, all day long. That's not a destro vs order issue, its not a WL issue, and it's not a class balance issue. It's a skill gap, and if you don't recognize that then it's your own issue.

If you let my Marauder run up to you, without paying attention, and rotation off you without a detaunt and almost no reaction time I'm also going to kill you. Are Marauder's OP now? If I do that on my lowbie Chosen, does that make Chosen's OP now?

User avatar
wildwindblows
Posts: 203

Re: WL DMG Screenshot

Post#55 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:05 pm

Foofmonger wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:53 pm
Kobra wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:03 pm
That kind of damage output with a face rolling on a keyboard (listen to the random smacking) is not skill and it's not balanced. But there is hope, when well known WL's come into this thread and affirm that it is indeed overpowered. But the statement that should be paid attention to most is this:

"Coming from playing Order characters, I never feared a DPS from Destro like I do WL (specially as RDPS and heals). Destro doesn’t have any class that can do what WL does. Same can be said for Marauder on Destro side, but I think people tend to hate WL more because they melt people while Marauder is more of WB utility class."
Honestly, Mara burst damage isn't terrible, just the vast majority of Mara's dont spec for it and don't use the burst rotation. Not as good as a WLs but it's not bad whatsoever.

The issue between WL and Mara isn't really damage, it's mobility, and it's not just between the WL and Mara, but between the 4 way mirror (SW/SH/Mara/WL) if we look at these classes, there is exactly only 1 that doesn't have a "pounce or teleport" and that class is the Mara.

The reality is that WL damage and burst is good but not because of the actual damage, many classes can do similar things. Their burst is good because of how reliably they can "apply" that burst. I might want to go attack a half heath WP on my Marauder who is say, 60ft away. As a Marauder, I have to either charge up to them, try to pull them (which will take a minimum of 3 seconds and likely fail and do nothing), or just run at them slowly. A MSH/ASW/WL does not have to do any of that, they can go see the target, click their teleport/jump and start bursting, which is why they are scary, because they can reliably "apply" their burst when and where they want it.

If Marauder's had shadowstep, it would go a long way to balancing this 4 way mirror. Unfortunately, it also might be a bit overpowered if not implemented correctly, so there is also some nuance here. It may need to be stance locked or something.
Mara can do brust if you go full brut stance and pick fof,pb,gi and flanking tactics. This means, you drop all debuffs and utillity. Ppl just can't see this.

Foofmonger
Posts: 520

Re: WL DMG Screenshot

Post#56 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:09 pm

wildwindblows wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:05 pm
Foofmonger wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:53 pm
Kobra wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:03 pm
That kind of damage output with a face rolling on a keyboard (listen to the random smacking) is not skill and it's not balanced. But there is hope, when well known WL's come into this thread and affirm that it is indeed overpowered. But the statement that should be paid attention to most is this:

"Coming from playing Order characters, I never feared a DPS from Destro like I do WL (specially as RDPS and heals). Destro doesn’t have any class that can do what WL does. Same can be said for Marauder on Destro side, but I think people tend to hate WL more because they melt people while Marauder is more of WB utility class."
Honestly, Mara burst damage isn't terrible, just the vast majority of Mara's dont spec for it and don't use the burst rotation. Not as good as a WLs but it's not bad whatsoever.

The issue between WL and Mara isn't really damage, it's mobility, and it's not just between the WL and Mara, but between the 4 way mirror (SW/SH/Mara/WL) if we look at these classes, there is exactly only 1 that doesn't have a "pounce or teleport" and that class is the Mara.

The reality is that WL damage and burst is good but not because of the actual damage, many classes can do similar things. Their burst is good because of how reliably they can "apply" that burst. I might want to go attack a half heath WP on my Marauder who is say, 60ft away. As a Marauder, I have to either charge up to them, try to pull them (which will take a minimum of 3 seconds and likely fail and do nothing), or just run at them slowly. A MSH/ASW/WL does not have to do any of that, they can go see the target, click their teleport/jump and start bursting, which is why they are scary, because they can reliably "apply" their burst when and where they want it.

If Marauder's had shadowstep, it would go a long way to balancing this 4 way mirror. Unfortunately, it also might be a bit overpowered if not implemented correctly, so there is also some nuance here. It may need to be stance locked or something.
Mara can do brust if you go full brut stance and pick fof,pb,gi and flanking tactics. This means, you drop all debuffs and utillity. Ppl just can't see this.
More hyperbole, you can go Sav/Brut or Brut/Monstro and not "lose all debuffs and utility. Some Mara utility is also baseline and has nothing to do with how you spec.

The Mara isn't a perfect class, but acting like it can't do the things it can do because you refuse to spec for them is disingenuous and does not help any kind of real balance discussions, because it's hyperbole. Let's not pretend the devs are stupid people and they can't tell when people are embellishing.

I'm sick of hearing people complain about Mara burst when they don't gear and spec for it, and I'm sick of hearing people complain about how Mara debuffs are useless because a BG can do them. These arguments are not coherent whatsoever and the Marauder playerbase doesn't agree on anything. What is is? If the debuffs are useless, why are you not speccing for burst? If the debuffs are needed, then why are they useless cause a BG can do it? It's just illogical whines at this point.

And I say this as a RR8X Mara who plays the burst spec and can easily show screenshots, damage numbers, and videos on the topic.

That doesn't mean, hey the Mara ST specs are fine and couldn't use some buffs/tweaks, but it doesn't mean that the damage is bad either. Saying "it can't do burst" is just lying, and saying "it has no utility in burst spec" is also lying.

User avatar
StrongUn
Posts: 224

Re: WL DMG Screenshot

Post#57 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:31 pm

A braindead and unskilled WL can kill lotsa stuff
A braindead and unskilled Marauder dont (stance dancin, no pet, no pounce, ...)
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wildwindblows
Posts: 203

Re: WL DMG Screenshot

Post#58 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:35 pm

StrongUn wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:31 pm
A braindead and unskilled WL can kill lotsa stuff
A braindead and unskilled Marauder dont (stance dancin, no pet, no pounce, ...)
Stance dancing doesn't worth atm.

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sogeou
Posts: 264

Re: WL DMG Screenshot

Post#59 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:19 pm

Illuminati wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:07 pm
sogeou wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:08 pm
Illuminati wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:42 pm


Good post. Again highlighting the burst imbalance between Order and Destro. I am not sure why people play WHs but I do for WEs. Destro only has 2 burst classes... Sorc if want a ranged burst class and WE if you want the melee burst class. Will be interesting to potentially get one with the incoming rSH/mSH changes.

Melee SH have wayyyyyyyy more burst than any other class on destro only a slight second to WL's. Why are you not adding them on that list?
You must mean when the pet is out (Get Em / Leonine Frenzy). You can't run the pet in WBs (dies to AoE, etc. hence my proposed improvements), or in 6v6. Only viable roaming and in dungeons. If they fix the pet issues I would add it in as a Destro burst class. My Choppa does more burst ST and I wouldn't classify it as a ST burst class. Both my Choppa / mSH are BIS so am not theory crafting here.

There is a difference ST and its not small. For both to get a target to 50% is similar in timing (though WLs is faster with the 2H and Pounce hitting for much more), the real difference is the execute sub 50%, armor debuff (Shred, etc.), and the GCDs you get while a victim is floating slowly in the air. The mSH can jump in, KD for 3 secs and that's it without the opponent doing stuff.

WE is the only real burst Melee on destro and not as good as a WL (no charge, less survivable, etc.).
I think you are confused on damage. Git em with sharp Teef's can hit for 1400 on soft targets. Pet can hit for 800 each hit. WL's CS hits for 800-900 with pet hitting for 500 -600.

290 bonus damage

4400 total damage on Get'em
3000 total damage on Coord strike

Melee SH can also preload the following moves. Bad gas, drop that, squig frenzy. Send pet to attack target and pounce at the same time to have the following items all hit is the same frame. Both classes can hit for 15-17 times within 3 seconds.

You add in the warlord armor debuff along with 600-700 weaponskill they can get targets have no armor. WL needs the armor debuff as they will almost never see higher than 400 weaponskill.

WL has the same limitations with the pet and it dying, bugging out or never being there. Also, SH can use 4 tactics while WL's must use one for pet and SH's have 40-50% parry, 4k armor, self heal,etc,etc.

Just because you don't want to use the pet, you cannot deny it is at the top of the chain with regards to melee dps on the destro side.

Also, how many times have a mSH chased people down on mounts due to 75% speed buff and pounce on to them? The class is great and happy they put it in. It is the WL of destro. Roll a AM and see for yourself.

Illuminati
Posts: 172

Re: WL DMG Screenshot

Post#60 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:48 pm

Like I said, if they buff the pet health a little bit I would agree that it could be considered a burst class. The reality is, attack the pet once, killing it, reducing the armor of the SH by 50%. Kill the squig ezpz. I bugged it and was basically told, 'working as intended'

The armor debuff from the Warlord doesn't proc (except rarely on Big Bouncing) and nobody wears it after they changed reduced parry to reduced dodge.

Get'em should do more than Leonine as the SH AA is trash and WLs have Sundering Strike/Armor debuffs/ignores.

Please stop. Nobody sane on either side thinks mSH > WL. It's not even close unless the pet goes from 2K hp to 12k hp, has the WL pet immunities (to morale AoE) , aoe damage reduction, and speed buff (even the WL pet has broken speed).

Again, by low skilled players it doesn't shine. It does have a higher skill ceiling than mSH by far - will give you that. Put WL in the right hands and there is no equal.
————————————————
Destro: Killamanjaro (80+ Choppa) / Killamanjaroo (70+ DoK) / Unsworn (70+ Chosen) / Illuminatii (60+ Blackguard) / Killaman (80+ Squig)
Order: ?

Bugs reported: 6

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