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Are WL feedback threads being deleted by Mods?

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thedonkeykong332
Suspended
Posts: 170

Re: Are WL feedback threads being deleted by Mods?

Post#11 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:08 pm

Foofmonger wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:00 pm
thedonkeykong332 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:56 pm
Foofmonger wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:44 pm
It was a pretty awful thread TBH, it started poorly and was going off the rails. I believe you and I, Illuminati were trying to get it back to be more reasonable/on rails but there's only so much you can do when you have 3 pages of people arguing over nerfed buttons or some nonsense.

If we want, I'd be happy to start a new thread (or if you want to do it), in the balance suggestions forum so we can have (hopefully) a more constructive discussion.
You cant discuss in a civil way when you have trolls here and people trying to personally bash you for simply stating facts, the only way to fight them is to shut up them down, since this behaviour isn't being moderated that's what it comes to.
Meh you still can, you just need to ignore the clear attempts at trolling or bad faith arguments. The goal is not to "win" every response that you get, but to have a constructive and civil discussion. That means you need to let some things just slide off and not react to them, as the goal of trolling is to prompt a response from the person being trolled. Therefore the way to "deal with trolls" is to "not acknowledge them". For instance, if you look at the last WL thread, (well you can't cause its deleted) all of my responses were to reasonable people. The "one liners about wow how you so stupid" are just ignored as fluff and noise.

Another thing to consider is depth of analysis. Responses that cite no evidence, no hard numbers, and don't make compelling arguments are really worth responding to. Responses such as "the class is so OP if you dont know that you are blind" or "in my experience the class is fine and destro whines too much", are quite literally absolutely worthless opinions that have no more thought than my last fart.

We need to talk numbers, evidence, understanding how the classes are played at the highest level and why they are strong, as it directly correlates to both group and wb composition as well as content type. The reality is, the average players opinion on class balance isn't very good, and lazy/half assed analysis/opinions aren't worth anything over "silence". So again, to have a civil discussion you basically just ignore those super lazy responses.
There is so much sh1t, you can't ignore it snowballs, it doesn't work in this way. some other guy will react to the troll, and another guy and so on & on and your post will be lost. That's why trolling need to be dealt with immediately, to avoid it.

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sogeou
Posts: 256

Re: Are WL feedback threads being deleted by Mods?

Post#12 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:09 pm

thedonkeykong332 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:08 pm

There is so much sh1t, you can't ignore it snowballs, it doesn't work in this way. some other guy will react to the troll, and another guy and so on & on and your post will be lost. That's why trolling need to be dealt with immediately, to avoid it.
Wish you played 2 years ago when WL's could do 15k damage in 2 seconds. All while having 5 people hit on them and 10k wounds and 700 toughness. Still one shot anything.

Foofmonger
Posts: 517

Re: Are WL feedback threads being deleted by Mods?

Post#13 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:13 pm

thedonkeykong332 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:08 pm
Foofmonger wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:00 pm
thedonkeykong332 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:56 pm


You cant discuss in a civil way when you have trolls here and people trying to personally bash you for simply stating facts, the only way to fight them is to shut up them down, since this behaviour isn't being moderated that's what it comes to.
Meh you still can, you just need to ignore the clear attempts at trolling or bad faith arguments. The goal is not to "win" every response that you get, but to have a constructive and civil discussion. That means you need to let some things just slide off and not react to them, as the goal of trolling is to prompt a response from the person being trolled. Therefore the way to "deal with trolls" is to "not acknowledge them". For instance, if you look at the last WL thread, (well you can't cause its deleted) all of my responses were to reasonable people. The "one liners about wow how you so stupid" are just ignored as fluff and noise.

Another thing to consider is depth of analysis. Responses that cite no evidence, no hard numbers, and don't make compelling arguments are really worth responding to. Responses such as "the class is so OP if you dont know that you are blind" or "in my experience the class is fine and destro whines too much", are quite literally absolutely worthless opinions that have no more thought than my last fart.

We need to talk numbers, evidence, understanding how the classes are played at the highest level and why they are strong, as it directly correlates to both group and wb composition as well as content type. The reality is, the average players opinion on class balance isn't very good, and lazy/half assed analysis/opinions aren't worth anything over "silence". So again, to have a civil discussion you basically just ignore those super lazy responses.
There is so much sh1t, you can't ignore it snowballs, it doesn't work in this way. some other guy will react to the troll, and another guy and so on & on and your post will be lost. That's why trolling need to be dealt with immediately, to avoid it.
You can ignore it and I do. Remember your audience in these threads and to whom you are writing for. It's not to "win arguments" or "fight with everyone who disagrees with you", it is to make a compelling balance case to the development team that actually impacts the balance of the game. It is to "achieve" something, and that something has nothing to do with your other forum posters. Do you honestly think the dev team can't sift through the chaff? I would wager that they skim over the trolls, the bad-faith arguments, and the clearly biased posts, probably only really reading the deeper analysis/opinions. Let's give them some credit, this is not about "who yells the most or the loudest wins". Those responses are laughed off for what they are.

There's a reason this thread starts off with War saying "they were certainly some responses", and the fact that we are in a thread talking about the closure of another thread. The dev/gm team is intelligent enough to understand who is trolling and who is being dumb, and who is not. You don't have to fight that battle.

thedonkeykong332
Suspended
Posts: 170

Re: Are WL feedback threads being deleted by Mods?

Post#14 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:23 pm

Foofmonger wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:13 pm
thedonkeykong332 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:08 pm
Foofmonger wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:00 pm


Meh you still can, you just need to ignore the clear attempts at trolling or bad faith arguments. The goal is not to "win" every response that you get, but to have a constructive and civil discussion. That means you need to let some things just slide off and not react to them, as the goal of trolling is to prompt a response from the person being trolled. Therefore the way to "deal with trolls" is to "not acknowledge them". For instance, if you look at the last WL thread, (well you can't cause its deleted) all of my responses were to reasonable people. The "one liners about wow how you so stupid" are just ignored as fluff and noise.

Another thing to consider is depth of analysis. Responses that cite no evidence, no hard numbers, and don't make compelling arguments are really worth responding to. Responses such as "the class is so OP if you dont know that you are blind" or "in my experience the class is fine and destro whines too much", are quite literally absolutely worthless opinions that have no more thought than my last fart.

We need to talk numbers, evidence, understanding how the classes are played at the highest level and why they are strong, as it directly correlates to both group and wb composition as well as content type. The reality is, the average players opinion on class balance isn't very good, and lazy/half assed analysis/opinions aren't worth anything over "silence". So again, to have a civil discussion you basically just ignore those super lazy responses.
There is so much sh1t, you can't ignore it snowballs, it doesn't work in this way. some other guy will react to the troll, and another guy and so on & on and your post will be lost. That's why trolling need to be dealt with immediately, to avoid it.
You can ignore it and I do. Remember your audience in these threads and to whom you are writing for. It's not to "win arguments" or "fight with everyone who disagrees with you", it is to make a compelling balance case to the development team that actually impacts the balance of the game. It is to "achieve" something, and that something has nothing to do with your other forum posters. Do you honestly think the dev team can't sift through the chaff? I would wager that they skim over the trolls, the bad-faith arguments, and the clearly biased posts, probably only really reading the deeper analysis/opinions. Let's give them some credit, this is not about "who yells the most or the loudest wins". Those responses are laughed off for what they are.

There's a reason this thread starts off with War saying "they were certainly some responses", and the fact that we are in a thread talking about the closure of another thread. The dev/gm team is intelligent enough to understand who is trolling and who is being dumb, and who is not. You don't have to fight that battle.
Ofc you can ignore it, but people troll & bash you, again if you ignore it, it will snowball and ruin your post, I don't fight with anyone who disagrees with me, I try to have a conversation but the first minute people bash or give unreasonable arguments so I answer to them.
You can be civil but it won't work vs toxic people, you will meet a brick wall.
I'm not trying to yell the most, the only thing I said was on top of everything why does WL needs a root as well? when even order players say it's not needed, and then I get personally bashed for it, some guy even tried to analyze my personality saying only people with big egos playing dps shaman rofl. That's why you cant have civil conversations here because you get bashed in this way and apparently its okay.

viewtopic.php?t=30900
You can see here for example why there is toxic behaviour on the forums when the head admin is actually trolling and being sarcastic to people.

User avatar
catholicism198
Posts: 1019

Re: Are WL feedback threads being deleted by Mods?

Post#15 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:27 pm

sogeou wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:09 pm
thedonkeykong332 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:08 pm

There is so much sh1t, you can't ignore it snowballs, it doesn't work in this way. some other guy will react to the troll, and another guy and so on & on and your post will be lost. That's why trolling need to be dealt with immediately, to avoid it.
Wish you played 2 years ago when WL's could do 15k damage in 2 seconds. All while having 5 people hit on them and 10k wounds and 700 toughness. Still one shot anything.
Fun times.
Even thinking about creating a WL thread would get you banned.

Last thread was a wine thread. Not sure what the guy expected.

Foofmonger
Posts: 517

Re: Are WL feedback threads being deleted by Mods?

Post#16 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:29 pm

thedonkeykong332 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:23 pm
Foofmonger wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:13 pm
thedonkeykong332 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:08 pm


There is so much sh1t, you can't ignore it snowballs, it doesn't work in this way. some other guy will react to the troll, and another guy and so on & on and your post will be lost. That's why trolling need to be dealt with immediately, to avoid it.
You can ignore it and I do. Remember your audience in these threads and to whom you are writing for. It's not to "win arguments" or "fight with everyone who disagrees with you", it is to make a compelling balance case to the development team that actually impacts the balance of the game. It is to "achieve" something, and that something has nothing to do with your other forum posters. Do you honestly think the dev team can't sift through the chaff? I would wager that they skim over the trolls, the bad-faith arguments, and the clearly biased posts, probably only really reading the deeper analysis/opinions. Let's give them some credit, this is not about "who yells the most or the loudest wins". Those responses are laughed off for what they are.

There's a reason this thread starts off with War saying "they were certainly some responses", and the fact that we are in a thread talking about the closure of another thread. The dev/gm team is intelligent enough to understand who is trolling and who is being dumb, and who is not. You don't have to fight that battle.
Ofc you can ignore it, but people troll & bash you, again if you ignore it, it will snowball and ruin your post, I don't fight with anyone who disagrees with me, I try to have a conversation but the first minute people bash or give unreasonable arguments so I answer to them.

viewtopic.php?t=30900
You can see here for example why there is toxic behaviour on the forums when the head admin is actually trolling and being sarcastic to people.
He is not trolling, although he tends to be sarcastic. That is also not "toxic behavior", that's just part of normal humanity.

The reality is, that thread is garbage. The OP starts the thread with hyberbole, attacking the dev team, and has a long stupid post that is devoid of a constructive discussion. There was no civil or constructive discussion that will come out of a thread that starts in that manner. This goes back to the point I have above on posts by people who are "so far down the grass is greener" logical fallacy, which that OP clearly is. It's a bad thread.

Wargrimnir, while being (maybe) sarcastic, has seen thousands of these poorly written, poorly worded, lazy balance threads. They don't need to see more whining and opinions, they are going to want facts and figures and actual analysis.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the devs closing these awful and biased threads. I don't care if its Order or Destro, if the thread starts out with "blah blah grass is greener my side is **** your side is OP devs are biased blah blah blah" that thread SHOULD be closed. They are absolutely worthless and do not lead to constructive discussion. You don't get to having a civil or constructive discussion when the entire premise of the discussion is ruined by bias and stupidity.

User avatar
mytreds
Posts: 137

Re: Are WL feedback threads being deleted by Mods?

Post#17 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:32 pm

We need to keep making silly threads. Otherwise Wargrim would have nothing to do and he might shut the server down.

thedonkeykong332
Suspended
Posts: 170

Re: Are WL feedback threads being deleted by Mods?

Post#18 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:34 pm

Foofmonger wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:29 pm
thedonkeykong332 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:23 pm
Foofmonger wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:13 pm


You can ignore it and I do. Remember your audience in these threads and to whom you are writing for. It's not to "win arguments" or "fight with everyone who disagrees with you", it is to make a compelling balance case to the development team that actually impacts the balance of the game. It is to "achieve" something, and that something has nothing to do with your other forum posters. Do you honestly think the dev team can't sift through the chaff? I would wager that they skim over the trolls, the bad-faith arguments, and the clearly biased posts, probably only really reading the deeper analysis/opinions. Let's give them some credit, this is not about "who yells the most or the loudest wins". Those responses are laughed off for what they are.

There's a reason this thread starts off with War saying "they were certainly some responses", and the fact that we are in a thread talking about the closure of another thread. The dev/gm team is intelligent enough to understand who is trolling and who is being dumb, and who is not. You don't have to fight that battle.
Ofc you can ignore it, but people troll & bash you, again if you ignore it, it will snowball and ruin your post, I don't fight with anyone who disagrees with me, I try to have a conversation but the first minute people bash or give unreasonable arguments so I answer to them.

viewtopic.php?t=30900
You can see here for example why there is toxic behaviour on the forums when the head admin is actually trolling and being sarcastic to people.
He is not trolling, although he tends to be sarcastic. That is also not "toxic behavior", that's just part of normal humanity.

The reality is, that thread is garbage. The OP starts the thread with hyberbole, attacking the dev team, and has a long stupid post that is devoid of a constructive discussion. There was no civil or constructive discussion that will come out of a thread that starts in that manner. This goes back to the point I have above on posts by people who are "so far down the grass is greener" logical fallacy, which that OP clearly is. It's a bad thread.

Wargrimnir, while being (maybe) sarcastic, has seen thousands of these poorly written, poorly worded, lazy balance threads. They don't need to see more whining and opinions, they are going to want facts and figures and actual analysis.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the devs closing these awful and biased threads. I don't care if its Order or Destro, if the thread starts out with "blah blah grass is greener my side is **** your side is OP devs are biased blah blah blah" that thread SHOULD be closed. They are absolutely worthless and do not lead to constructive discussion. You don't get to having a civil or constructive discussion when the entire premise of the discussion is ruined by bias and stupidity.
Being sarcastic in every post to almost every guy, encourages this kind of behaviour, and people will avoid talking about it because they don't want to get bashed in this certain way, if you're the head admin here you shouldn't encourage this behaviour but instead like you said ignore and just close the thread or put a sticky to end it once & for all, but the guy chose to answer in a different unprofessional way. if this kind of behaviour comes from an admin you can't blame the players for bashing threads.

just 2 weeks ago you had another WL post it was very civil and the guy just got bashed and eventually the thread got closed? it started civil so ? did anything change? did people discussed in a civilized way? no the guy got bashed because it seems this is the kind of atmosphere going around here bashing people and it seems to be fine as well.

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vanbuinen77
Posts: 50

Re: Are WL feedback threads being deleted by Mods?

Post#19 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:40 pm

Remove wl pounce.

Instant fix as the issue isnt their damage but mobility
Malificatium-Magus
Neferata-Dok
Archeron-Chosen
Checkpoint-Mara
Ouchmyfoot-Squigherder
Greeniemeanie-Shaman
Doomedagain-Slayer
Dogcatcher-White Lion
Breakthis-Ironbreaker

Foofmonger
Posts: 517

Re: Are WL feedback threads being deleted by Mods?

Post#20 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:41 pm

thedonkeykong332 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:34 pm
Foofmonger wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:29 pm
thedonkeykong332 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:23 pm

Ofc you can ignore it, but people troll & bash you, again if you ignore it, it will snowball and ruin your post, I don't fight with anyone who disagrees with me, I try to have a conversation but the first minute people bash or give unreasonable arguments so I answer to them.

viewtopic.php?t=30900
You can see here for example why there is toxic behaviour on the forums when the head admin is actually trolling and being sarcastic to people.
He is not trolling, although he tends to be sarcastic. That is also not "toxic behavior", that's just part of normal humanity.

The reality is, that thread is garbage. The OP starts the thread with hyberbole, attacking the dev team, and has a long stupid post that is devoid of a constructive discussion. There was no civil or constructive discussion that will come out of a thread that starts in that manner. This goes back to the point I have above on posts by people who are "so far down the grass is greener" logical fallacy, which that OP clearly is. It's a bad thread.

Wargrimnir, while being (maybe) sarcastic, has seen thousands of these poorly written, poorly worded, lazy balance threads. They don't need to see more whining and opinions, they are going to want facts and figures and actual analysis.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the devs closing these awful and biased threads. I don't care if its Order or Destro, if the thread starts out with "blah blah grass is greener my side is **** your side is OP devs are biased blah blah blah" that thread SHOULD be closed. They are absolutely worthless and do not lead to constructive discussion. You don't get to having a civil or constructive discussion when the entire premise of the discussion is ruined by bias and stupidity.
Being sarcastic in every post to almost every guy, encourages this kind of behaviour, and people will avoid talking about it because they don't want to get bashed in this certain way, if you're the head admin here you shouldn't encourage this behaviour but instead like you said ignore and just close the thread or put a sticky to end it once & for all, but the guy chose to answer in a different unprofessional way. if this kind of behaviour comes from an admin you can't blame the players for bashing threads.

just 2 weeks ago you had another WL post it was very civil and the guy just got bashed and eventually the thread got closed? it started civil so ? did anything change? did people discussed in a civilized way? no the guy got bashed because it seems this is the kind of atmosphere going around here bashing people and it seems to be fine as well.
Which is exactly why I make the posts I do. I don't disagree that the community needs to be more reasonable and civil. That's why I directly point out that people are falling into the rabbit hole of polarization.

That being said, put yourself in the devs team shoes too. This is not their job. They do this for free, in their free time, for fun. If you were seeing the same lazy posts and whines over and over and over again for years, I'm sure you would be a little fed up with it too. Nobody is perfect, so lets keep the stones in our hands instead of throwing them at glass houses. Expecting the private server dev team who does this for free to act like a full game company whose goal is to generate revenue is asinine. They don't have to act in any certain way or manner, and thinking that they do is a legacy of how you interact with game companies who are trying to turn a profit. The reality is those people think the same things, they just can't post them because of their company policies as if they do, it might hurt the companies revenue/bottom line. ROR has no revenue/bottom line, so the devs are free to be themselves with their own personalities instead of being little corporate robots.

That's not a bad thing by the way, just the way the real world works. Nobody here, including the staff, owes you, me, or anyone else anything, and I'm certainly not interested in trying to tell the dev team that they have to act in any certain manner when they are doing all this work, for us the community, for free.

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