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Deadpoet
Posts: 259

Posting in all caps draws the wrong attention

Post#1 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:46 pm

Disclaimer: this post is 100% flame free, 100% drama free and to make it even worse, can't be browsed or skimmed for interesting stuff: it needs full attention and thorough reading even though the reader isn't rewarded in the end. It doesn't even offer any suggestions, and there's no attacks on the devs nor witty cynicism. It's pure reflection. BORING. you've been warned.

The far from optimal situation of certain classes (SW and WH come to mind) in sore need of some buffs to make them wanted and viable in the endgame context par excellence (city instances) has prompted diverse reflections and proposals in the playerbase. Some people have pointed out that some classes are not suited naturally to fit in the full scale battle meta where AoE damage, morales etc are the primary elements. Attempts to make them viable are hard to carry out as any tweaks have to be carefully measured not to force them out of their original design or make them too OP when they are already very powerful in smallscale situations, for example. Some people will say that some classes are very powerful BOTH in small scale and cities, but that's not what I'm discussing here.

As may people have already pointed out, sovereign gear being tied to cities can cause frustration and dismay in people maining classes that are felt to be not suited for cities. These people desire and need sovereign gear as much as the people playing "wanted" classes. Of course there are ways around this, and any class can get their complete sets pugging it and having patience and commitment, although its not an easy road.

The thing is, some classes (WH, WE, SW for example) are built to be solitary assassins or sneaky roamers, hit and run warriors, weaving in and out of the shadows, waging their war in their own terms, setting their own schedules, expecting no help nor support from anybody, or simply people who like skirmishes rather than full battles, engagements where they can shine outside the zerg, not as another cog in the wheel. It's harder to make them fit in more gregarious contexts like forts and cities. People playing those classes ask for changes that will enable to be competitive in mass battle situations, buffs that will enhance their AoE performance etc.

But why do they do that? Do all these people truly like and enjoy full battles in a city instance? I don't think so. I think many people chose to play some classes because their playstyle is exactly the opposite of what city instances represents. It's just that sovereign gear is a goal that every player will try to achieve, because gear is the overriding force in a pvp game.

My point is, why play a content of the game that you don't really enjoy, playing a class that is not suited to nor wanted in that context? Well, there's no other option if you want to have access to the best gear. But could there be?

IMHO ranked solo was a very good idea, but it doesn't seem to be working. Many people will say that the grind is too much. But I think ranked solo sc gear is simply felt to be not endgame like sovereign, so people won't grind for it. GEAR again as the overriding concern.

I don't know what the solution to the problem is, but I would very much like to see a development of the game that implied a new or revamped competitive content centered in small scale which could provide an alternative to city instances as endgame content.

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Kaelang
Bugtracker Manager
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Re: SOME REFLECTIONS ON ENDGAME MUSTS AND NEEDS

Post#2 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:06 pm

People asked for ranked gear - ranked gear was created but it's 'not good enough' and thus people don't play ranked. Ranked wasn't there as a form of gear progression - that wasn't its purpose. It was to bring in an ability for competitive players to grind the MMR ladder, gaining gear as a by product.

You said it yourself:

'The thing is, some classes (WH, WE, SW for example) are built to be solitary assassins or sneaky roamers, hit and run warriors, weaving in and out of the shadows, waging their war in their own terms, setting their own schedules, expecting no help nor support from anybody, or simply people who like skirmishes rather than full battles, engagements where they can shine outside the zerg, not as another cog in the wheel.'

Not every class, is by lore definition, or class design, meant to be optimal in the warband content. Which is the same the other way around - for example Bright Wizards / Sorcs - realistically they need a pocket healer, and they're squishy if focused - making them not a great pick in the small man content. But that isn't, by definition, what their purpose is. They're an AoE bomb class - which is great for cities.

Now - you make the point that sovereign gear is the 'end-game' gear. Which correct, it is. And thus we added Royal Crests to RvR bag drops, to encourage people not online to city log, but to play the campaign. Now, was the introduction enough to stop people city logging? And act as an alternative solution to gearing for Sovereign? No - but that wasn't the purpose, it was a 'you don't want to do cities, but you wan't to gear - have a secondary, albeit smaller, income of crests'.

To close my point on this - you're suggesting that these players (WH, WE, SW - by your example) do not enjoy city. I'd beg to differ that there are players who *do* enjoy the city content. This is where we start crossing the boundaries of player behaviour - and how much the dev team should be manipulating the game to encourage a specific player behaviour. For example, increase rewards from X - suddenly encourages people to do X.

Cities are the end-game content, in an RvR 24v24 based game. The classes you have listed definitely have their spots in 24 man content - it's just the current meta says otherwise. Now metas come and go, but the fact remains in that a meta is player driven - it isn't something that the team can control without getting involved in the core gameplay mechanically. WH / WE can harass the backline. Scout locations. Etc. What's actually happening though, is AoE cleave comps running in bombs and blowing everything up beforehand - which you guessed it - leaves less for WH / WE's to do. At this point - should the team redesign the core fundamentals of these classes to suit the meta? And solidify it even more? No. You said it yourself, this isn't how the classes are built in the first place.

I'm rambling, because posts like this occur every city, and for one reason or another, I've decided to actually reply to one - but I hope my gist comes across.

The team are obviously open to suggestions - but this thread doesn't really suggest much - it just kinda says 'this is happening it needs looking it' - which in terms of development, doesn't really help.

Just to close this all up, these are my opinions, as you guys know I'm pretty vocal, but don't go holding anything I've said here as biblical factual information. Conspiracy theories from forum threads suck.

End.
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doxifera
Posts: 120

Re: SOME REFLECTIONS ON ENDGAME MUSTS AND NEEDS

Post#3 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:30 pm

Make a reward system for the City like it is in zone contribution , only within the entire Campaign, and players/classes that did not get into the City, for various reasons, but those participating in the Campaign will receive an email with crests.

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Kaelang
Bugtracker Manager
Posts: 902

Re: SOME REFLECTIONS ON ENDGAME MUSTS AND NEEDS

Post#4 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:31 pm

doxifera wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:30 pm
Make a reward system for the City like it is in zone contribution , only within the entire Campaign, and players/classes that did not get into the City, for various reasons, but those participating in the Campaign will receive an email with crests.
I get what you're saying - but let's grind this down to it's simplest form. Campaign Contribution = Royal Crests. - That's already implemented.
Bugs are like Pokémon - Gotta catch em all.

Fancy helping me become the very best, like no BT Manager ever was? Submit your bugs to the tracker and follow the format. If you've found a shiny (exploit), PM's or Discord please.

doxifera
Posts: 120

Re: SOME REFLECTIONS ON ENDGAME MUSTS AND NEEDS

Post#5 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:37 pm

Kaelang wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:31 pm
doxifera wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:30 pm
Make a reward system for the City like it is in zone contribution , only within the entire Campaign, and players/classes that did not get into the City, for various reasons, but those participating in the Campaign will receive an email with crests.
I get what you're saying - but let's grind this down to it's simplest form. Campaign Contribution = Royal Crests. - That's already implemented.
Crosses in bags were introduced to encourage rvr, weren't they? such an amount cannot be an alternative way of obtaining Sov. Its takes ages^) to the forty thousandth millennium: d
Last edited by doxifera on Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kaelang
Bugtracker Manager
Posts: 902

Re: SOME REFLECTIONS ON ENDGAME MUSTS AND NEEDS

Post#6 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:38 pm

doxifera wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:37 pm
Kaelang wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:31 pm
doxifera wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:30 pm
Make a reward system for the City like it is in zone contribution , only within the entire Campaign, and players/classes that did not get into the City, for various reasons, but those participating in the Campaign will receive an email with crests.
I get what you're saying - but let's grind this down to it's simplest form. Campaign Contribution = Royal Crests. - That's already implemented.
Crosses in bags were introduced to encourage rvr, weren't they? such an amount cannot be an alternative way of obtaining Sov. Its takes ages^)
See my giant wall above - they weren’t there as an alternate way to gear up. That’s what cities are for. :)

The problem you’re now suggesting, is the lack of pops for those queued, or people missing city pops. Which is a whole other story.
Bugs are like Pokémon - Gotta catch em all.

Fancy helping me become the very best, like no BT Manager ever was? Submit your bugs to the tracker and follow the format. If you've found a shiny (exploit), PM's or Discord please.

doxifera
Posts: 120

Re: SOME REFLECTIONS ON ENDGAME MUSTS AND NEEDS

Post#7 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:42 pm

Kaelang wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:38 pm
doxifera wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:37 pm
Kaelang wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:31 pm


I get what you're saying - but let's grind this down to it's simplest form. Campaign Contribution = Royal Crests. - That's already implemented.
Crosses in bags were introduced to encourage rvr, weren't they? such an amount cannot be an alternative way of obtaining Sov. Its takes ages^)
See my giant wall above - they weren’t there as an alternate way to gear up. That’s what cities are for. :)

The problem you’re now suggesting, is the lack of pops for those queued, or people missing city pops. Which is a whole other story.
It is also your absence online when the city passes, or your body is needed as a number for a push Сampaign, but your level is too low to get rewards for this push.
Last edited by doxifera on Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kaelang
Bugtracker Manager
Posts: 902

Re: SOME REFLECTIONS ON ENDGAME MUSTS AND NEEDS

Post#8 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:45 pm

doxifera wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:42 pm
Kaelang wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:38 pm
doxifera wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:37 pm


Crosses in bags were introduced to encourage rvr, weren't they? such an amount cannot be an alternative way of obtaining Sov. Its takes ages^)
See my giant wall above - they weren’t there as an alternate way to gear up. That’s what cities are for. :)

The problem you’re now suggesting, is the lack of pops for those queued, or people missing city pops. Which is a whole other story.
It is also your absence online when the city passes, or your body is needed as a number for a push Сampaign, but your level is too low to participate in a result of this push.
Sure - absence online can suck. But that's the point of a constantly developing open RvR campaign. You push when you're online to get that city pop. And if you're too low level to participate in a city, then sovereign gear shouldn't be your focus.
Bugs are like Pokémon - Gotta catch em all.

Fancy helping me become the very best, like no BT Manager ever was? Submit your bugs to the tracker and follow the format. If you've found a shiny (exploit), PM's or Discord please.

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Deadpoet
Posts: 259

Re: SOME REFLECTIONS ON ENDGAME MUSTS AND NEEDS

Post#9 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:48 pm

Indeed. You quoted me in two occasions in your reply ("you said it yourself") and it's not by chance. We see the same issues here and I am fully aware of the difficulties involved in dealing with the problem.
Kaelang wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:06 pm
should the team redesign the core fundamentals of these classes to suit the meta? And solidify it even more? No. You said it yourself, this isn't how the classes are built in the first place.
Exactly, I don't think the team should redesign the core fundamentals of any class to suit the meta. That could be, in a few words, the gist of a big part of my post. We agree in this too. I love solitary or small scale classes to be as they are originally, and I wouldn't like them to be transformed into something they are not just to fit the meta.

I'll admit my post is useless, in the sense that it doesn't help immediately or tangibly to the ongoing discussion, as it doesn't offer any suggestions. For a time I thought making ranked solo sc rewards on par with sovereign gear could be worth a shot, but quickly I dismissed the idea. Making the alternative to a gear driven situation gear driven too didn't seem a good call. This post was meant to be only a reflection from someone who fully perceives the complexity of the situation instead of thinking it all very simple to fix, appreciates the hard work the devs have put into this seemingly insoluble task of trying to make room for every class and every playstyle, and humbly submits these thoughts hoping that someone with more experience and wisdom can elaborate on these reflections and offer some valuable ideas.

doxifera
Posts: 120

Re: SOME REFLECTIONS ON ENDGAME MUSTS AND NEEDS

Post#10 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:49 pm

Kaelang wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:45 pm
doxifera wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:42 pm
Kaelang wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:38 pm


See my giant wall above - they weren’t there as an alternate way to gear up. That’s what cities are for. :)

The problem you’re now suggesting, is the lack of pops for those queued, or people missing city pops. Which is a whole other story.
It is also your absence online when the city passes, or your body is needed as a number for a push Сampaign, but your level is too low to participate in a result of this push.
Sure - absence online can suck. But that's the point of a constantly developing open RvR campaign. You push when you're online to get that city pop. And if you're too low level to participate in a city, then sovereign gear shouldn't be your focus.
Why royals, they would be happy with a pack of scout or soldier's emblems, or whatever they need there at their level. And a campaign cannot be pushed in one game session, with an equal aspect ratio.

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