City Winner History?

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Foofmonger
Posts: 517

Re: City Winner History?

Post#441 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:57 pm

CountTalabecland wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:26 pm
Spoiler:
Mordd wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:18 am
CountTalabecland wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:52 pm


I'm saying dont expect to get higher win percentages by playing classes the realm/wb doesnt need. Order needs more tanks and healers, simple as that. Plus RDPS is the worst archetype to have a lot of in a city street fight. All those destro classes are backed by more tanks and healers so even mediocre ones out perform Order's unhealed/unguarded classes.
right over your head. The comment was about those being acceptable decent classes in destro, but the order side is just bad.
Its more complicated than that when it comes to balance. Shaman and SH are both quite a bit better than their mirrors, Magus is solid in low numbers and WE is in the same boat as WH but has far easier target selection due to the squish most Order plays. But, yes, if you are playing Order right now the solution is not to play the overplayed and underpowered SW, WH, heal AM, and role something that hasn't been ruined or made useless or is spammed by smooth brained bots like Engi.
SH is definitely the biggest discrepancy. You can stack MSHs much easier than you can stack ASWs, simply because any kind of 24v24+ meta is going to be dominated by AoE damage. A single ASW can work very well on the ST assist train for order, but you can easily run 2-4 MSHs and have no major issues on Destro. Both RSW and RSH are pretty mediocre/bad in city and barely run by anyone (I think they're slightly underrated personally but that's my own opinion).

Shaman is better than AM, but it's still competing intra-realm for spots in cities. Most destro wbs will take exactly 1 shaman as the ideal comp, the times we have to stack shamans is simply the same as Order having to stack AMs (we can't find anyone else, we don't want 2-3 shamans). Either way, order or destro, you have 1 spot in city for this class more or less.

WH/WE are basically only viable in the ST assist train spot as a 1 of for either realm.

I'm starting to move away from the "the issue with Order is that they have more unviable classes" as a philosophy. This is "slightly" true, when it comes to ASW vs MSH, but that's about it in the grand scheme of things. The other unwanted classes on Order have mirrors on destro that are equally unwanted more or less. It's not that Shamans or WE's are easily getting city spots on destro, and those archetypes issues with being part of the city meta are greater than an "Order vs Destro" balancing concept, they just aren't good in cities as a whole, regardless of which version you are playing.

I think Order's balance issues aren't really about things like "AMs are slightly worse then Shamans" (which is an issue to be fair, just not the main one), and I'm actually leaning more towards Teiloh's and others arguments about things like an overabundance of cd reducers on destro, GTDC being so broken/buggy, etc... and other macro level reasons for the discrepancy.

You are correct though, it is very complicated when it comes to balance, and unfortunately with varying sizes/types of content and so many different classes it's just hard to ensure that things are balanced at all levels of play. That doesn't mean we can't try though.

A good example is: If this thread was about 6v6s, the narrative would be reversed. Order tends to be stronger than destro in that content type for various reasons, the same way that Destro is better in 24v24 for various reasons. Order tends to be great at ORvR/keep/fort defenses, where it's an uphill battle for destro in some situations. Etc... It's not like "Destro always beats order at all times" but it certainly seems to have an advantage in the city structure and content. Now this matters because this is the end-game content and how we acquire end-game gear/currency, so this is the content that "matters", it doesn't matter if Order can whoop Destro in ranked 6v6 because you don't get sov gear there. It doesn't matter that Order is better at holding forts than Destro, because again, it's not the end game.

The unfortunately reality of MMOs with gear grinds is that people do want the best gear, and they want to be able to obtain that gear, so that's what they are going to play/optimize for. City is the most important content in this game at the moment, and if the rough relatively gameplay there isn't balanced, it will cause player sat issues.

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Grimfang
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Posts: 125

Re: City Winner History?

Post#442 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:21 pm

Orders balance issue is they have more ranged in a game that is melee train dominated. Same reason you couldnt have 2rdps vs 2 mdps in ranked.

agemennon675
Posts: 167

Re: City Winner History?

Post#443 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:26 pm

Everyone agree that there is MSH/aSW difference, it is obvious and everyone wants more Melee-dps on order. Than reducing the cooldown of Sweeping Slash to 5 sec from 20 + changing Swift Strikes with a channelled aoe mirroring Big Bouncing is a good start to make order mdps more viable
Last edited by agemennon675 on Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tefnaht
Posts: 73

Re: City Winner History?

Post#444 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:35 pm

agemennon675 wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:26 pm
Everyone agree that there is MSH/aSW difference is obvious and everyone wants more Melee-dps on order. Than reducing the cooldown of Sweeping Slash to 5 sec from 20 + changing Swift Strikes with a channelled aoe mirroring Big Bouncing is a good start to make order mdps more viable
It's mean that the idea of "melee train" is a only one playable setup stay forever. With that strategy every rDD must have melee spec witch provide 1-2 spots without lose potential to whole wb(setup like 2 bw 2 wh 2 engi 2 sw).

Or make rDD valuable in city scenario, looks like this more flexible way for develop setups. But, in this game overall design in one hand is too greedy to give a lot of save tools against melee for range and in other hand generous to give melee middle range control/cut distance abilities. + battle res + over heals + over protection against range damage + only 4 abilities with 30s cd(2 of them on melee) can give distance advantage without giving immunity(what about 1st leap give target 20-30s immunity to be a target for next leap from anyone?). rDD simply can't keep distance and can't do significant advantage against enemy melee compilation before loose distance advantage.

P.S. if someone don't know - set back on cast is crucial rDD problem in more then 1o1 fights against melee, 1s cast can easily turn to 2.5s cast... and rDD have 2 options keep distance or Focused Mind.
Last edited by tefnaht on Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jonspidy
Posts: 85

Re: City Winner History?

Post#445 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:02 pm

agemennon675 wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:26 pm
Everyone agree that there is MSH/aSW difference is obvious and everyone wants more Melee-dps on order. Than reducing the cooldown of Sweeping Slash to 5 sec from 20 + changing Swift Strikes with a channelled aoe mirroring Big Bouncing is a good start to make order mdps more viable
This could work, why not just mirror the aSW to the meatball for a week and see if the results change in cities. Couldn't hurt to try it.
Vanhel - Knight Of the Blazing Sun
"The hammer is not the answer to every military problem, for even the mightiest of hammers will miss its mark if the opponent is wise enough not to wait around to get crushed."

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Spellbound
Posts: 70

Re: City Winner History?

Post#446 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:58 am

Rasenmeister wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:45 pm
what is the difference in being able to pull through the barrier?
when the warcamp is pushed - the enemy has already lost and is doomed

Personal pain or hurt? Just stay away from the barrier and that's it
Warcamp has guards that’ll hit you for 30000 dmg. Devs clearly made a barrier for safety. If you’re going against the design, it’s unintended gameplay and from now on all players I’ll DVR and send in.

I don’t expect FMJ/Destro to agree for obvious reasons with Choppas and doing it all the time. Destro brains are a little different. /wink
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Mordd
Posts: 111

Re: City Winner History?

Post#447 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:11 am

CountTalabecland wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:26 pm
Spoiler:
Mordd wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:18 am
CountTalabecland wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:52 pm


I'm saying dont expect to get higher win percentages by playing classes the realm/wb doesnt need. Order needs more tanks and healers, simple as that. Plus RDPS is the worst archetype to have a lot of in a city street fight. All those destro classes are backed by more tanks and healers so even mediocre ones out perform Order's unhealed/unguarded classes.
right over your head. The comment was about those being acceptable decent classes in destro, but the order side is just bad.
Its more complicated than that when it comes to balance. Shaman and SH are both quite a bit better than their mirrors, Magus is solid in low numbers and WE is in the same boat as WH but has far easier target selection due to the squish most Order plays. But, yes, if you are playing Order right now the solution is not to play the overplayed and underpowered SW, WH, heal AM, and role something that hasn't been ruined or made useless or is spammed by smooth brained bots like Engi.
So the solution isnt that they should balance the damn game, and make the order classes as viable as the destro clases. But that order should all reroll to the few acceptable classes order can play. I really wish they would nerf your classes so i could return the favor and just tell you that you have to reroll and acceptable class.

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Rasenmeister
Posts: 13
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Re: City Winner History?

Post#448 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:43 am

Spellbound wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:58 am
I don’t expect FMJ/Destro to agree for obvious reasons with Choppas and doing it all the time. Destro brains are a little different. /wink
What problem?
if enemy block in wc - he have no chances.

City
1 stage -
if enemy block in wc - all bo losts
if the enemy cannot get out of the barrier himself, then he will lose in an open battle 100%

2 stage -
block in wc - all enemys champs dead

3 stage
nuff said
=FMJ= Tristarix/Urgolf

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M0rw47h
Posts: 586

Re: City Winner History?

Post#449 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:25 am

Rasenmeister wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:43 am
Spellbound wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:58 am
I don’t expect FMJ/Destro to agree for obvious reasons with Choppas and doing it all the time. Destro brains are a little different. /wink
What problem?
if enemy block in wc - he have no chances.

City
1 stage -
if enemy block in wc - all bo losts
if the enemy cannot get out of the barrier himself, then he will lose in an open battle 100%

2 stage -
block in wc - all enemys champs dead

3 stage
nuff said
Its more about pulling and farming freshy respawned players, constantly instead of letting them wait until end of stage or letting them regroup before they get their butts kicked once more. Imho bad manner.
Anathae [KotBS] / Anathea [WP] ( and couple others )
former Anathae [Zealot]

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Rasenmeister
Posts: 13
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Re: City Winner History?

Post#450 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:30 am

M0rw47h wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:25 am
Its more about pulling and farming freshy respawned players, constantly instead of letting them wait until end of stage.
I know - but in this situation enemy already have no chances. Res screen 10 min - any player can not press respawn key

Pulling - its lesser problem of city.
As i think - this is never be reason for lose instant
=FMJ= Tristarix/Urgolf

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