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City Winner History?

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Kwatchi
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Re: City Winner History?

Post#501 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:48 pm

mytreds wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:12 pm
Kwatchi wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:25 pm
IC 3* score was 10-2.

Please begin the “organize moar” and “betta leet playas” chorus.

It is a pity New World was not in a releasable state. The competition for pop might have forced some action finally.
Honestly, I doubt the GMs would care if it was in a releasable state. And I hate to burst your bubble but that game will probably never be in a releasable state. Just another game released in EA to suck your money and then leave you with nothing.
Thank you magic eight ball. Your grasp on what has occurred is breathtaking to behold.

That last IC was 16-6 for Destro btw. That included one ‘orgnized’ Destro group coming over to the Order side and getting roflstomped - too funny.
Slayer - 40/7x
Archmage - 40/7x

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Templa
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Re: City Winner History?

Post#502 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:55 pm

Well. the amount of Pugs Order starts with is a lot higher than Destro.
Source: Experience
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ActAppalled
Posts: 20

Re: City Winner History?

Post#503 » Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:19 am

Foofmonger wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:15 pm
ActAppalled wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:11 pm
I don't think it is purely an organisational issue for Order, it would really help if we had data of city team compositions and their respective win rates as that would easily confirm or deny that theory.

Personally I have only ever qued in 8/8/8 full WB groups as part of my Order guild alliance and my win rate is under 50% (If we take a WH/SW/Engi/AM or IB it is only one). I have two Order classes that have 5/8 Sov and 3/8 Sov respectively, so have done my fair share of city.
I'm usually either top or near the top of the meters in my respective classes and don't believe it's specifically me being the cause of the losses (but I do have bad days just like everyone else).
The minimum for said alliance WBs is Vanq but I would say about 50% of the players we get on a given day are usually better geared (quite a number in full Sov too). Yet we still lose, a lot, we never lose to unorganised Destro but a big majority of the WB's we verse have at least some numbers of PnP, FMJ, LOB, TUP, Capulet etc.. and usually it's enough.
It's not a static group due to the nature and timing of cities so it's not like we constantly field the same people either, I think it's quite a reach in logic to assume our whole big Alliance is just full of bad players. Personally I started on Destro and have a Magus that got to 3-4 Sov pieces (can't remember exactly) and had a higher win rate just from joining literally any /5 group advertising looking for DPS that would take me (as on Destro you can't be too picky as a Magus and you had to be sure you qued the second City instances opened).
One of the best BWs on the server in BiS gear (that has been in top guilds during cities) also claims to have a win percent under 50%.

This all leads me to believe there is definitely at least some class balance issues in city between the two factions. Simplfied, it is the better CC/AOE Cleave/Interrupts/Tankiness of the Destro melee train coupled with better damage and utility on Destro tanks (BG having better/actual AOE and a spammable healing debuff compared to IB, BO having a better CD decreaser and better utility than SM and Chosen having better offence at no cost to their defence over KOTBS, just to name a few) plus having more viable options in mSH over aSW and Shaman being a better healer/kiter than AM, it all adds up and compounds.
I don't see the supposed healing advantage Order has as the healing numbers on any City screenshot I look at indicate no significant difference (in fact it feels like DoKs somehow heal more than WP a lot of the time but that could be due to many factors).
For the record there is also a class distribution issue and telling Order to just organise better won't solve anything, as you can only spread the limited tank players that order has access to, so far.
Destro is guilty of bad organsiation and bad groups too, it's just less punishing on that side unless you get extremes like this screenshot (but I'm adding it to illustrate a point):
https://imgur.com/NmzMUOB
I think this is a good and fair post from a perspective that's not my own, so good take. There certainly are potential balance issues at hand and it's certainly not 100% an organizational issue, again, I think the balance and the organizational issues compound one another and make each other worse to your point.

Who are you btw in game? I'm going to assume I've faced you in a variety of cities so I'd like to see who you are from perspective of the fights we've had so I can add my own color to your wins/losses.
Thank you for remaining one of the few more grounded voices of reason for destro players Foofmonger. I would rather not reveal my chars/guild as I don't want to seem like I'm speaking for them or get targeted etc...

What I can say is that when I joined the guild about 3 or so months ago I joined it because it had the most players online and the biggest roster, these past 2 weeks it's been like 6 people at most (if no city) and even with city it's not much better. The past 4-5 City's we've had nowhere near a full WB making us put a group from /Alliance (which out of like 6 guilds in the Alliance we hardly fill one WB) but we take everyone (SWs, WHs, people in Conq etc..) it's a 2/2/2 "organised WB" but we just keep losing leading to a lot of blaming and demotivated people.

A big part of our players have rolled Destro and the rest just aren't bothered to log, it's really sad cause I used to enjoy city fights and this game quite a lot.

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Rasenmeister
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Re: City Winner History?

Post#504 » Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:21 am

16 instants - 2-14
really, when order start orginized wb?

Main problem - solo q players
=FMJ= Tristarix/Urgolf

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mytreds
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Re: City Winner History?

Post#505 » Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:41 am

Order is less and less organized because we don’t see the point in doing these cities at oddball hours.

It’s also harder to organize when no one logs in guilds and alliances anymore, even for cities.

It gets worse when many order guild members start playing Destro and realize how much better their mirrors are; that they have access to morale pumping abilities which give them overtuned morales much quicker; that they can get top numbers in cities as fresh 40s equipped in greens and blues.

My guild/alliance a month ago had enough for 2 full wbs each city. Now, we barely have enough for a full wb, during prime-time!

Order people are losing interest in this game fast or they are switching to the easier side, because for them winning 80% of the time is more fun.

Although I hate to see it, I have respect for them, because they are willing to admit that one side in this game is clearly broken and objectively better than the other. Which says a lot about the people who are in here continually denying this very fact.

This game is dying on one side due to a lack of understanding this and continual denial of the facts.

But hey, I hope you all got your free loot this weekend.

Duukar
Posts: 74

Re: City Winner History?

Post#506 » Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:08 am

It’s a well known fact that you will get too end game gear faster as destro. Someone said exactly that to me in /gu the other day.

I rolled a destro toon and I’m RR 55 sitting on 2 pieces of Invader gear in my bank. By the time I can wear the gear I might even have nearly a full set.

That being said during the war front this weekend we were rolling order hard in alliance pug SCs until an organized guild logged on with coms and put our wins to an end fast. Their slayers seemed untouchable.

A day prior our guild/alliance WB rolled that same group badly in city twice in two cities in a row.

Order has strong set ups and strong players. You don’t get end game gear from SCs though.

Maybe that needs to change.

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wonshot
Posts: 618

Re: City Winner History?

Post#507 » Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:22 am

If it is true that Apex have 80% winrate, I would like to trade my sub 50% city winrate please. :D

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Elemint
Posts: 152

Re: City Winner History?

Post#508 » Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:40 am

wonshot wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:22 am
If it is true that Apex have 80% winrate, I would like to trade my sub 50% city winrate please. :D

FeelsOrderMain
The healers in the warbands you're in might have to start detaunting if that is to happen

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Spellbound
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Re: City Winner History?

Post#509 » Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:47 am

mytreds wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:41 am
Order is less and less organized because we don’t see the point in doing these cities at oddball hours.

It’s also harder to organize when no one logs in guilds and alliances anymore, even for cities.

It gets worse when many order guild members start playing Destro and realize how much better their mirrors are; that they have access to morale pumping abilities which give them overtuned morales much quicker; that they can get top numbers in cities as fresh 40s equipped in greens and blues.

My guild/alliance a month ago had enough for 2 full wbs each city. Now, we barely have enough for a full wb, during prime-time!

Order people are losing interest in this game fast or they are switching to the easier side, because for them winning 80% of the time is more fun.

Although I hate to see it, I have respect for them, because they are willing to admit that one side in this game is clearly broken and objectively better than the other. Which says a lot about the people who are in here continually denying this very fact.

This game is dying on one side due to a lack of understanding this and continual denial of the facts.

But hey, I hope you all got your free loot this weekend.
This. Players are blind if they don't see the data for 4+ months even when Order had much more organized warbands. Even if organized, order has to try harder for the win while fresh 40 destro in vanq can perform better. The mirror has so much better tools and better function and our Guild has 1/2 Destro players that confirm it between the two realms they play..

Zealot can self pump morale with their heal and get M4 AOE heal debuff that stacks but Rune Priests can't self pump? Balance.
Zealot Winds of Insanity as something fun and effective if you don't interrupt it, constant knockback. RP nothing similar. Balance.
Magus can instant Rift and can achieve top damage in city but eng has a delay and can't even reach that damage. Balance.
Mara can top DPS charts, AOE KD, more effective pull without a pet, vs White Lions needing a pet and can't top damage charts and bugged pets patching. Balance.
Squig Herders can take up 3 slots in city and be effective w/ high armor, Bouncin' Ball vs. SW it's a crutch to carry more than one. Balance.
Choppas has the unique ability of GTDC as a 3rd pull for the realm which does damage, speed boost and easy to kill a target while they're in the air. No order equil. Balance
Shaman are hard to kill versus AMs. You can run 2-3 Shaman and be effective WB where you're gimped running multiple AMs. Shaman always heal much more than AMs. Balance.
Magus can AOE debuff for Sorc AOE while that's not easily available for Order. Balance.
Casters and melee just have better synergy that Order doesn't, which leads to people giving up and not playing proper classes or organization.
Won't even start on the tank classes.

Synergy is just much easier to get together for Destro and there is obvious mirroring problems even though it's nice having uniqueness and I prefer it, but Order doesn't have good utility or the proper classes. Devs have alot of work to do on making some Order classes fun in
24v24, especially Healer/Tanks. Organization is an issue when classes aren't fun and people are swapping to Destro as a routine or no longer playing, especially during cities now. Order aren't magically choosing to not organize or play certain classes. Seeing some Destro players switching to Order to make Warbands and get destroyed, ya they're gonna see the difference pretty quick.

Expect 1-2 Wins for Order and 14+ for Destro more often now. Players are hopping over to Destro for the easy, expected Royal Crests. Order doesn't have an advantage list like that which Destro does. Whoever did the balancing, was probably centered on pre-city because oRvR was fine. Pretty much Order can only win if you want to run heavy RP/WP/Slayer/WL/BW/Knight/SM then give more effort. Leaving other classes out.

If balancing doesn't want to be done around cities, remove cities or allow other sources of Royal Crests for order players. That way they can just completely stop queueing up cities and stick w/ their oRvR.
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dether
Posts: 31

Re: City Winner History?

Post#510 » Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:57 am

Any destro warband should have high winrate atm cause well all know how is the state of order.
Before we even talk about balance on a 24 vs 24 warband environment we need to realize that the majority of the order dont care for that until city opens.
Order slowly switched to a small scale factions with soloers, 6mans and even on city people prefer to queue as 12 .

You can flame them or say anything its their time they spend more time on lakes or pushing or whatever than that 1 hour inside the city.

Any organised guild suffers to get players with the same mindset but if you want a random guild with 4-5 people max order is full of them.

Those people shouldnt even bother to complain about balance or anything cause they have nothing to do with that kind of play , they put 0 effort to build anything, they queue with the mentality of we gonna lose but we get medals and if lucky bags some people get more medals by losing that those unlucky people on the other side that get less cause of bags.

Morale drops are nerfed, Destro ball is easy to pull off requires no effort and its effective as **** on average/pug level and most of all destro care come to win those cities than order!

Order has the tools but their play style is different and requires some effort to pull it off but will give great results but still people prefer the easy way of destro .

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