Rvr analysis- AoR vs RoR, and problem of solo classes in RoR.
Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:41 am
An analysis of observations about the logic behind rvr mechanics in AoR, vs in RoR.
If you look at AoR, specially at its last years, the rvr mechanics were specifically catering to not needing a large scale rvr organization- not even a single wb size in most instances:
-Not needing opposition to get full rewards from zone lock and not having lords to defend keeps, meant that both sides were much more spread between 3 open zones- and smaller population in any single zone compared to RoR meant that it was much more doable to advance the campaign with a small scale, up to and including solo, compared to RoR. Large scale fights still existed, but were usually limited to single zone out of the 3, despite the campaign being advanced in all 3.
-BO renown rewards being based about bot resource carriers reaching resource drop points, and rewarding all players present in zone, meant it was much more advantageous for players to roam the zone looking for fights, compared to RoR mechanic where roaming the zone compared to joining a wb which carries resources means missing on BO renown rewards.
-There were no forts, which requite a large scale organization.
-Cities were pvdoor content optional- those who preferred could join instances with large scale fights, however those who weren't looking for rvr fights- whatever because of wanting free rewards, or cause of not liking large scale rvr- could join empty instances, which did not required any organization.
-Endgame armor came from Skaven instance, which required only small scale fights, and from rvr kills- which could be achieved even solo.
-Related to all of the above- since non of the content required large scale organization, and since it was possible to get all the bis endgame equipment solo or in up to 6man, the most important reward from rvr was renown- compared to RoR where the bottleneck is city and sov.
Now if you compare RoR:
-Most of rewards in rvr zones comes from keep fights- to get the lord renown tick you need keep contribution, to get the bag from zone lock you need zone contribution which is much easier to get in keep fight than roaming the zone, to get access to fort you need once again contribution which is much easier to get in keep fight, to get vanquisher medallions from lock you once again need contribution so once again keep fights. And those require wbs- solo or small scale in mass keep fights are pretty much impossible.
-Forts are invader bottleneck and require being in a wb.
-Cities are sov bottleneck and once again require a wb, and not just that but also preferably at a very least 2/2/2 optimized one.
-Even one of pve possible endgame options- 22 pqs- requires a wb.
The reasons behind it are likely a different motivation of live publishers compared to RoR team- while on live the motivation was to attract and keep paying subscribers- whatever they never joined any organized wbs and preferred getting rewards from pvdoor didn't mattered- in RoR the motivation of the team is to improve the game, and as part of it to prevent the players from finding an overly easy ways to get rewards/from avoiding fighting while still getting rewards.
The problem however is that the way it is implemented in RoR- forcing large scale keep/fort/city fights and requiring organization+ large scale- specifically means that RoR supports much less the small scale, and the options of gaining rewards solo/in small scale- including for players willing to put the effort and not looking for free rewards, however preferring the small scale over large one.
Which in turn brings it to the problem that several classes- sw, wh/we, to a lesser extent magus/engi/ib/am, and many more classes in non-wb meta specs- were intended for solo/small scale and not for wb/large scale rvr play, meaning that RoR forcing large scale organization/rvr makes those classes and specs undesirable.
Which brings the current situation, where those classes/specs are considered underpowered- which isn't possible to change with current RoR mechanic without redesigning those classes/specs for wb meta.
Personal opinion is that while AoR pvdoor situation needed to change, RoR did went too far in orginized rvr direction, without keeping support for smaller scale. Of cause, whatever rvr changes that would and if be added to change that, would need to address the reasons for why currently small scale isn't supported, without hurting large scale.
-For keeps, likely BOs are need to be made matter more, specially during keep fight- so while those that prefer large scale keep fights will fight at keep, those that prefer small scale will fight in zone/at bos, and still get keep contribution. Possibly make BO control affect things like ram dmg/oil CD, to require both attackers and defenders to try and control BOs.
-Same for forts- likely what will be required is to separate fort door and fort BOs fighting, so that both will be required in same time.
- Not sure about cities, but possibly something like 6v6 city instances/pug instances, with for example no chance of winning bags but with large reward for winning side and small reward for losing side to motivate fighting.
If you look at AoR, specially at its last years, the rvr mechanics were specifically catering to not needing a large scale rvr organization- not even a single wb size in most instances:
-Not needing opposition to get full rewards from zone lock and not having lords to defend keeps, meant that both sides were much more spread between 3 open zones- and smaller population in any single zone compared to RoR meant that it was much more doable to advance the campaign with a small scale, up to and including solo, compared to RoR. Large scale fights still existed, but were usually limited to single zone out of the 3, despite the campaign being advanced in all 3.
-BO renown rewards being based about bot resource carriers reaching resource drop points, and rewarding all players present in zone, meant it was much more advantageous for players to roam the zone looking for fights, compared to RoR mechanic where roaming the zone compared to joining a wb which carries resources means missing on BO renown rewards.
-There were no forts, which requite a large scale organization.
-Cities were pvdoor content optional- those who preferred could join instances with large scale fights, however those who weren't looking for rvr fights- whatever because of wanting free rewards, or cause of not liking large scale rvr- could join empty instances, which did not required any organization.
-Endgame armor came from Skaven instance, which required only small scale fights, and from rvr kills- which could be achieved even solo.
-Related to all of the above- since non of the content required large scale organization, and since it was possible to get all the bis endgame equipment solo or in up to 6man, the most important reward from rvr was renown- compared to RoR where the bottleneck is city and sov.
Now if you compare RoR:
-Most of rewards in rvr zones comes from keep fights- to get the lord renown tick you need keep contribution, to get the bag from zone lock you need zone contribution which is much easier to get in keep fight than roaming the zone, to get access to fort you need once again contribution which is much easier to get in keep fight, to get vanquisher medallions from lock you once again need contribution so once again keep fights. And those require wbs- solo or small scale in mass keep fights are pretty much impossible.
-Forts are invader bottleneck and require being in a wb.
-Cities are sov bottleneck and once again require a wb, and not just that but also preferably at a very least 2/2/2 optimized one.
-Even one of pve possible endgame options- 22 pqs- requires a wb.
The reasons behind it are likely a different motivation of live publishers compared to RoR team- while on live the motivation was to attract and keep paying subscribers- whatever they never joined any organized wbs and preferred getting rewards from pvdoor didn't mattered- in RoR the motivation of the team is to improve the game, and as part of it to prevent the players from finding an overly easy ways to get rewards/from avoiding fighting while still getting rewards.
The problem however is that the way it is implemented in RoR- forcing large scale keep/fort/city fights and requiring organization+ large scale- specifically means that RoR supports much less the small scale, and the options of gaining rewards solo/in small scale- including for players willing to put the effort and not looking for free rewards, however preferring the small scale over large one.
Which in turn brings it to the problem that several classes- sw, wh/we, to a lesser extent magus/engi/ib/am, and many more classes in non-wb meta specs- were intended for solo/small scale and not for wb/large scale rvr play, meaning that RoR forcing large scale organization/rvr makes those classes and specs undesirable.
Which brings the current situation, where those classes/specs are considered underpowered- which isn't possible to change with current RoR mechanic without redesigning those classes/specs for wb meta.
Personal opinion is that while AoR pvdoor situation needed to change, RoR did went too far in orginized rvr direction, without keeping support for smaller scale. Of cause, whatever rvr changes that would and if be added to change that, would need to address the reasons for why currently small scale isn't supported, without hurting large scale.
-For keeps, likely BOs are need to be made matter more, specially during keep fight- so while those that prefer large scale keep fights will fight at keep, those that prefer small scale will fight in zone/at bos, and still get keep contribution. Possibly make BO control affect things like ram dmg/oil CD, to require both attackers and defenders to try and control BOs.
-Same for forts- likely what will be required is to separate fort door and fort BOs fighting, so that both will be required in same time.
- Not sure about cities, but possibly something like 6v6 city instances/pug instances, with for example no chance of winning bags but with large reward for winning side and small reward for losing side to motivate fighting.