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What wrong with ranked scenarios ?

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Grock
Posts: 675

Re: What wrong with ranked scenarios ?

Post#11 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:17 pm

Vandoles wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:06 pm
But I can tell that the direction of development is for the hardcore, so I am guessing that may be the intention to begin with.
Thats not the case, the real hardcore crowd never needed a solo matchmaking in the first place. What they asked is 6v6 matchmaking with proper rewards to incentivize more people to build groups and try out the serious buisness.

What was made though is an abomination. A solo matchmaking that is both troublesome for hardcore players (because you can't rely on random teammates) and prone to be abused by them (because they know eachother and can just queue together or hop into voice channel when in same match). If that wasn't bad enough the rewards are also irrelevant to hardcore crowd because they already having stronger gear.

It was made for casual crowd, but without any real way to make it enjoyable for casual crowd.

As such it failed to satisfy the needs of both demographics and lies dead now.
Last edited by Grock on Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Vandoles
Posts: 248

Re: What wrong with ranked scenarios ?

Post#12 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:19 pm

That's kinda what I meant, that the direction is that of the core/hardcore and this is a system that SHOULD be directed to casual/solo players. Which would eventually lead to the 6vs6 with proper rewards you mentioned.

lyncher12
Posts: 195

Re: What wrong with ranked scenarios ?

Post#13 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:11 pm

i'd much rather farm for ranked gear on the classes its decent on then do city

but alas

Grimfang
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Re: What wrong with ranked scenarios ?

Post#14 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:43 pm

Grock wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:53 pm
Adding unqiue gear rewards to scenarios has always been a bad idea IMO

It forces people into participating in something they might not be interested about and that creates terrible experience for everyone ('member that guy that said he's gonna just throw his way into full set?)

It would've been much better if Ranked SCs were just an alternative path to obtaining top level gear. At this point i believe it should be City gear token, there's just no other way around it.
Well you could use that argument against any part of the game. If someone just wants to grind pqs should they get sov from it because thats what they enjoy?

Brickson
Posts: 62

Re: What wrong with ranked scenarios ?

Post#15 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:16 pm

Spoiler:
agemennon675 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:11 am
I personally have alot of toons at 40 and I would love to play ranked on all of them even if ranked had no rewards tied to it, I love competetive modes in any game, but I never qued for ranked in ror simply because my most geared toon is at vanq, I simply dont want to play at a disadvantage because gear

That's the main reason why I'm not playing ranked as well. Besides the fact that engi and wh aren't super viable classes for this. Maybe I'll will play it with my sm once she is equipped enough. But that's still a very long time away..
Spoiler:
Grimfang wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:43 pm
Grock wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:53 pm
Adding unqiue gear rewards to scenarios has always been a bad idea IMO

It forces people into participating in something they might not be interested about and that creates terrible experience for everyone ('member that guy that said he's gonna just throw his way into full set?)

It would've been much better if Ranked SCs were just an alternative path to obtaining top level gear. At this point i believe it should be City gear token, there's just no other way around it.
Well you could use that argument against any part of the game. If someone just wants to grind pqs should they get sov from it because thats what they enjoy?

Maybe...if you make sure the time to obtain the gear through this would be the same as through cities or other ways. The good thing about gear progression is that it gives people something to do and that dopamine kick when you get your new item.
The bad thing, which years and years of video games/mmos have shown, is that most people will try to find the fastest and easiest way to get these results. Even if it's no fun for them or others at all. Which makes it even worse in pvp environments. No one cares if you grind your ass off in the most boring way in Diablo. But if you're trying to go for the fastest/easiest way to obtain gear in orvr, forts and cities other people will be effected by this. That's why you see stuff like people throwing zones and forts or people getting up at ridiculous hours to solo queue for cities instead of playing the game in a way they and others can enjoy.
Bricksona 7X WH, Bricksone 6X Engi, Bricksana 6X SM, Bricksorno 4X RP

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wargrimnir
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Re: What wrong with ranked scenarios ?

Post#16 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:29 pm

No progression rewards in Ranked is the only thing that will make it worth playing if you care about your rank (you know, the point of the game mode).

If there's progression rewards, people will grind for it, the quality of matches will be meaningless, and people will complain the grind isn't short enough regardless of how short you make it.

6v6 isn't something to balance around, it is the literal embodiment of top tier meta 6-man groups and should have essentially no balancing around it short of slapping down obviously broken synergy. The vast majority of players are not at the level of meta play that would ideally go on here. The vast majority of people don't need to have classes buffed and nerfed based on it.

Either way, it's a dead mode until someone wants to take a whack at it, but I can't see any reason to bother really. The core population wasn't there to begin with. People showed up for the progression gear, not the ranking.
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Grock
Posts: 675

Re: What wrong with ranked scenarios ?

Post#17 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:01 am

wargrimnir wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:29 pm
No progression rewards in Ranked is the only thing that will make it worth playing if you care about your rank (you know, the point of the game mode).

If there's progression rewards, people will grind for it, the quality of matches will be meaningless, and people will complain the grind isn't short enough regardless of how short you make it.

6v6 isn't something to balance around, it is the literal embodiment of top tier meta 6-man groups and should have essentially no balancing around it short of slapping down obviously broken synergy. The vast majority of players are not at the level of meta play that would ideally go on here. The vast majority of people don't need to have classes buffed and nerfed based on it.

Either way, it's a dead mode until someone wants to take a whack at it, but I can't see any reason to bother really. The core population wasn't there to begin with. People showed up for the progression gear, not the ranking.
While i generally agree having it as part of regular gear progression isn't ideal, the opposite - removing gear rewards - isn't going to work either, becaue 99% of gameplay in the entire game is centered around progression.
Excluding ranked from progression means not only people lose the incentive, but even more - spending time on ranked would be detrimental to character's progression, as such even if a person is interested they might choose to avoid it until they are geared enough to not bother about it.

Current implementation is alright in terms of rewards i suppose, but not particularly thrilling. A rehashed old sets with slightly higher stats isn't enticing, especially when its plain outclassed by City gear.
And thats in addition to other problems with it which i already touched upon in this thread.

Low server population, very high barrier of entry and general lack of interest in the "arena" type of gameplay already makes it hard enough to have any 6v6 going.
The goal should be increasing the interest and participation and translating that into 6v6 tournament events to engage the community further. The few tourneys we had were fun, but seeing same old names competing over and over again gets old and boring.

I believe the only option to really engage people would be to add royal crests as weekly reward (and not just nominal amount), and a considerable extra bonus at the end of the Season. That will incentivize everyone to participate, even people at the top end of progression.

Although it still leaves us with the issue of gear disparity which means most people have no reason to even try it until they are top gear, no simple solution there

worth playing if you care about your rank (you know, the point of the game mode)
Honestly nobody should "care about rank", rank is just representation of your performance over a long enough period of playing.
The goal of "ranked" mode shouldn't be about getting on scoreboard, but to have balanced and enjoyable matches built based on estimation of player's skill, instead of just bunch of random characters thrown together. (honestly maybe a solution could be renaming it from "ranked mode" to "balanced mode" or something :) )

Salt and elohell complaints are natural and expected :)

p.s. As for balace - 6v6 strips the game down to its bare essentials, the raw combat without any distractions. This means it can expose issues that aren't obvious in other ways of playing.
In a similar way ranking statistics could be used to determine how well classes perform,
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Vandoles
Posts: 248

Re: What wrong with ranked scenarios ?

Post#18 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:38 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:29 pm
No progression rewards in Ranked is the only thing that will make it worth playing if you care about your rank (you know, the point of the game mode).

If there's progression rewards, people will grind for it, the quality of matches will be meaningless, and people will complain the grind isn't short enough regardless of how short you make it.

6v6 isn't something to balance around, it is the literal embodiment of top tier meta 6-man groups and should have essentially no balancing around it short of slapping down obviously broken synergy. The vast majority of players are not at the level of meta play that would ideally go on here. The vast majority of people don't need to have classes buffed and nerfed based on it.

Either way, it's a dead mode until someone wants to take a whack at it, but I can't see any reason to bother really. The core population wasn't there to begin with. People showed up for the progression gear, not the ranking.
Eh I tend to agree with you, but therein lies the problem with a matchmaking system. You can't adress it directly. People will always look for efficient ways to play the game, the point is to produce the side-effect of what you want while they do. At the end of the day, the matchmaking could easily give 0 additional rewards, but simply provide you with fairer games - thus more people would happily play it to get a better chance at winning and not getting stomped.

I'm reminded of WoW arena issues. If you go to a private server right now, they're utterly glaring, with anything but a meta combo getting destroyed and pvp dying before it gets a chance to take off because the absolute top dominates everything. Servers have yet to find a solution, but it is notable that the less rewards there are, the better it is, but also the less popular. It is also notable that the so-called "cap day" (playing before the day points are distributed) is immeasurably better. Simply because it gives everyone a chance to get very slight additional rewards (in the specific example, let's say 1 piece of above-average gear in a month and a half, with a stat boost let's say the equivalent of 3-4 toughness/wounds and 3-4 main stat).

It's a super complicated issue and I get why nobody wants to bother. Personally I genuinely believe the way to fix ranked matchmaking is from the bottom up, involving the absolute bottom tier casuals and letting it create a natural ladder.

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lyncher12
Posts: 195

Re: What wrong with ranked scenarios ?

Post#19 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:37 pm

there were periods where it had 2 or 3 games simultaneously and i didnt usually see familiar faces. i think the people that were spam queuing either got the gear, got burnt out on ror, or were sick of sitting at mailbox in city all day.

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wargrimnir
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Re: What wrong with ranked scenarios ?

Post#20 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:06 pm

I would sooner encourage the MMR system that was developed be applied to every scenario so at least we can preserve that functionality. It's an interesting datapoint even if we don't use it for matchmaking purposes.
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