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Percieved Bias and Game Balancing

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Valarion
Posts: 296

Re: Percieved Bias and Game Balancing

Post#51 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:54 pm

aardvak001 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:34 pm
Gurf wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:27 pm
I don't think Rain of Fire stacks for BW...
My experience in City in both pug and premade is that it became boring quickly playing on Order as most Des premades just group up in a melee ball, CC you , pull you, interrupt you and aoe you to death with you barely having the chance to do anything, aoe damage killing you stupidly quickly. It wasn't like you always felt you were being outplayed or outsmarted by people who had worked on their team play for months on end (like you occasionally do in scenarios), you just felt like you are beaten by very easy tactics and setups that any group of Des players thrown in together could pull off as long as they have enemy addon and Discord. After a while you just going in half interested and just play around and wait for your bags
Rain of fire does stack, combat logs have shown this.
The melee bomb comment is exactly the same for destro, it's KoTBS, slayer, BW and WP. Big bomb group.

The RoF stacking problem was fixed three times already since server inception....... is it broke AGAIN?
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40s: WP/Dok AM/Shaman RP/Zeal Knight/Chosen SM/BO BW/Sorc WL & Eng

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Tillbeast
Posts: 60

Re: Percieved Bias and Game Balancing

Post#52 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:14 pm

Vandoles wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:52 pm
Tillbeast wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:45 pm
Whichever side that is most organised will always be superior to the other. Currently this is destruction and it has been for quite a while now. Class balance is irrelevant, you could give order a huge buff to all classes making them out perform destruction they would still lose to destruction if the destruction faction was more organised. Same goes if order were more organised than destruction. Not saying destruction players are better or more skillfull than orders but there is nothing skillful about running 2/2/2 warbands and having a pretty equal spread of classes and applying a little organisation to your faction, just better organisation. Order don't run enough melee dps nor tanks and this prevents orders melee achieving its full potential, a 2/2/2 warband based around slayers is actually better than a 2/2/2 warband based around choppas but because every man and his dog on order dps are bw's, engies and dps arch mages those few melee dps order players have just dont get any support.

The latest mara nerf is only going to be noticable in the 2 or 3 cities that contain order organised pre mades....the other instances will just be as easy for the destruction faction due to prob 70-80% of destruction being pre mades. Seiging will always be in orders favour unless they are badly organised but I think most destro have no issue with this at moment. If order ever become as organised as destruction the order classes that dominate seiging will need to be balanced
There's a very clear factor that impacts organization, which is specc/class viability. Obviously if you have 3-4 great and 8-9 not so great you'll have worse organization/class balance than having 8-9 great and 3-4 not so great. Order is punished heavily by having classes/speccs people want to play be inferior and the meta be so tight.
Neither faction has classes that are that much better than the others to make the opposition class irrelevant. A well played sorc will out dps a badly played bw although it is widely acknowledged the bw is a better class for example. Yes at the top top end organised play class choice makes a difference, believe it or not order actually are better, but an organised order warband using 2/2/2 is just as good as a destruction 2/2/2 unless you don't bother with melee dps and just run ranged dps like engies, dps arch mages where you got no melee to protect you from destruction melee train.

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farng84
Posts: 64

Re: Percieved Bias and Game Balancing

Post#53 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:44 pm

Thank you for the post.
Although it is hard to be objective and there is quite a bit of salt from both sides.
Can't say I know too much about the game, I'm still grinding my way to 80+ but I did play a fair number of scenarios.
Now city might have better rewards but it is still just a 3 stage scenario (not even that good to be fair).
I would not say one side wins more scenarios... So why does order lose this much in city?
I would say organization and lack of variety.
1) Pugs are smashed by premades. I never saw a pug win in this condition (although destro is really bad in interacting with objectives...we go and fight on a road while the flag is being capped...so order pug might get the flags). At the moment destro is probably more organised when going to city never joined a random group going to city (excluding solo queue ofc) that was not 2-2-2. If order can't do the same they are bound to lose.

2) I lost plenty of scenarios where IB, WH and every other "less desirable" class was playing. Each brings variety and utility. Moreover, it is harder to defend from all of those different things. Honestly the game also seems more fun if all classes have their role. If some is clearly messed up should be fixed.

Regarding the lack of viable builds that somebody mentioned. Meta is meta in all games not only RoR I did play wow and eso a lot before joining this server and you'd better know and use the meta build for the content you are going to play in in those games too. To do certain content you are forced into a certain build and follow certain mechanics. BUT other builds should be suitable/enjoyable for the rest of the content (city is not the only thing you do I hope). If additional builds are not viable, the class seriously need some love.

One last point, which is true for me but not necessarily universal truth...Order tanks don't look great (visually) is not only the issue of pulling god knows if my chosen or BG got pulled, rooted, stunned, knocked down and any other possible status just to be melted by the enemy lines... I sill play them because I like their look, but if I had to suffer the same and look like a KOTBS or IB... well, sorry my friend but I'm rerolling BW or WP (hell, even WH). I still die but I'll be a cool looking corpse

Vandoles
Posts: 248

Re: Percieved Bias and Game Balancing

Post#54 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:21 pm

Tillbeast wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:14 pm
Vandoles wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:52 pm
Tillbeast wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:45 pm
Whichever side that is most organised will always be superior to the other. Currently this is destruction and it has been for quite a while now. Class balance is irrelevant, you could give order a huge buff to all classes making them out perform destruction they would still lose to destruction if the destruction faction was more organised. Same goes if order were more organised than destruction. Not saying destruction players are better or more skillfull than orders but there is nothing skillful about running 2/2/2 warbands and having a pretty equal spread of classes and applying a little organisation to your faction, just better organisation. Order don't run enough melee dps nor tanks and this prevents orders melee achieving its full potential, a 2/2/2 warband based around slayers is actually better than a 2/2/2 warband based around choppas but because every man and his dog on order dps are bw's, engies and dps arch mages those few melee dps order players have just dont get any support.

The latest mara nerf is only going to be noticable in the 2 or 3 cities that contain order organised pre mades....the other instances will just be as easy for the destruction faction due to prob 70-80% of destruction being pre mades. Seiging will always be in orders favour unless they are badly organised but I think most destro have no issue with this at moment. If order ever become as organised as destruction the order classes that dominate seiging will need to be balanced
There's a very clear factor that impacts organization, which is specc/class viability. Obviously if you have 3-4 great and 8-9 not so great you'll have worse organization/class balance than having 8-9 great and 3-4 not so great. Order is punished heavily by having classes/speccs people want to play be inferior and the meta be so tight.
Neither faction has classes that are that much better than the others to make the opposition class irrelevant. A well played sorc will out dps a badly played bw although it is widely acknowledged the bw is a better class for example. Yes at the top top end organised play class choice makes a difference, believe it or not order actually are better, but an organised order warband using 2/2/2 is just as good as a destruction 2/2/2 unless you don't bother with melee dps and just run ranged dps like engies, dps arch mages where you got no melee to protect you from destruction melee train.
You're missing the point entirely. For example the fact 2h bruiser builds on destro tanks are pretty great is why destro has more tanks and less of a shortage (also since you can just respecc tank when necessary, like for cities).

Vandoles
Posts: 248

Re: Percieved Bias and Game Balancing

Post#55 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:23 pm

Spoiler:
farng84 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:44 pm
Thank you for the post.
Although it is hard to be objective and there is quite a bit of salt from both sides.
Can't say I know too much about the game, I'm still grinding my way to 80+ but I did play a fair number of scenarios.
Now city might have better rewards but it is still just a 3 stage scenario (not even that good to be fair).
I would not say one side wins more scenarios... So why does order lose this much in city?
I would say organization and lack of variety.
1) Pugs are smashed by premades. I never saw a pug win in this condition (although destro is really bad in interacting with objectives...we go and fight on a road while the flag is being capped...so order pug might get the flags). At the moment destro is probably more organised when going to city never joined a random group going to city (excluding solo queue ofc) that was not 2-2-2. If order can't do the same they are bound to lose.

2) I lost plenty of scenarios where IB, WH and every other "less desirable" class was playing. Each brings variety and utility. Moreover, it is harder to defend from all of those different things. Honestly the game also seems more fun if all classes have their role. If some is clearly messed up should be fixed.

Regarding the lack of viable builds that somebody mentioned. Meta is meta in all games not only RoR I did play wow and eso a lot before joining this server and you'd better know and use the meta build for the content you are going to play in in those games too. To do certain content you are forced into a certain build and follow certain mechanics. BUT other builds should be suitable/enjoyable for the rest of the content (city is not the only thing you do I hope). If additional builds are not viable, the class seriously need some love.

One last point, which is true for me but not necessarily universal truth...Order tanks don't look great (visually) is not only the issue of pulling god knows if my chosen or BG got pulled, rooted, stunned, knocked down and any other possible status just to be melted by the enemy lines... I sill play them because I like their look, but if I had to suffer the same and look like a KOTBS or IB... well, sorry my friend but I'm rerolling BW or WP (hell, even WH). I still die but I'll be a cool looking corpse
WoW made its biggest strides into becoming the eternal king of all MMOs when it made virtually all builds viable for its main content, pve.

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farng84
Posts: 64

Re: Percieved Bias and Game Balancing

Post#56 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:45 am

Mmm, not sure it would be that easy consider that, for example in small number scenario a single target burst is much more effective than in oRvR, with that many ppl aoe is just more effective so aoe build have advantage.
In not an easy task and all we end up doing is bitching about what devs do.
The only thing I would be careful is balancing the game around cities...That is a very minor part of the content and it is something where many classes are not even welcomed to participate. Which again, I really find stupid since all of this unwanted classes regularly butcher me in scenarios and city is just 24 vs 24 scenario with fat loot...Still, better having a full party of WL, WP, KoTBS, BW and Slayers, possibly losing to a more balanced destro wb

Also, don't they snob mages in current wow because CC like sheep is not as important, dps is sub par compared to other dps and portals are everywhere?

Trickshaw
Posts: 17

Re: Percieved Bias and Game Balancing

Post#57 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:11 am

Ramlaen wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:16 pm
This is no better exemplified than the disparity between squig herder and shadow warrior. The classes were originally designed as mirrors but that line has been blurred in RoR. When shadow warrior recently got the buffs to aoe and ST ranged builds, developers said that once they were happy with the balance of shadow warrior they would apply a similar process to squig herder and make the ranged build more viable. As of writing this, squig herder is yet to recieve a buff of any kind to it's ranged build and as such the class remains entirely one dimensional, compared with the shadow warrior that now has 3 viable builds.
This is amazing.
To be fair, SH and SW were (in fact) *not* originally designed to be mirrors. In fact, SH, Mara, SW and WL are the cross section classes. These classes have always been a nightmare to balance because all 4 of them are blended/overlapped/intertwined. There is no way you're going to be able to fairly balance that kind of situation. Or I should say, my limited brain meat can't conceive of a reality where that actually happens.

Source: My WAR Collector's Edition boxed set is sitting on a shelf about 7 feet from where I'm sitting.

Diros
Posts: 9

Re: Percieved Bias and Game Balancing

Post#58 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:00 am

Ramlaen wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:16 pm
This is no better exemplified than the disparity between squig herder and shadow warrior. The classes were originally designed as mirrors but that line has been blurred in RoR. When shadow warrior recently got the buffs to aoe and ST ranged builds, developers said that once they were happy with the balance of shadow warrior they would apply a similar process to squig herder and make the ranged build more viable. As of writing this, squig herder is yet to recieve a buff of any kind to it's ranged build and as such the class remains entirely one dimensional, compared with the shadow warrior that now has 3 viable builds.
This is amazing.
Right, they're still griping about that even after SW got re-nerfed into a single viable class that same weekend. You guys really will be griping once they actually push a full balance pass on everything lol.

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lifeson
Posts: 15

Re: Percieved Bias and Game Balancing

Post#59 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:01 am

farng84 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:44 pm
One last point, which is true for me but not necessarily universal truth...Order tanks don't look great (visually) is not only the issue of pulling god knows if my chosen or BG got pulled, rooted, stunned, knocked down and any other possible status just to be melted by the enemy lines... I sill play them because I like their look, but if I had to suffer the same and look like a KOTBS or IB... well, sorry my friend but I'm rerolling BW or WP (hell, even WH). I still die but I'll be a cool looking corpse
This.
Creates a cycle of ever diminishing order tanks which just makes it worse.
I think the classes are pretty balanced overall its just often utterly painful playing tank on order due to the lack of fellow tanks (and mdps) with you. Puts a lot of people off and so the order rdps pool grows even more.
Playing my BG on dest was a breeze by comparison, far less frustrating.

Mystry
Posts: 396

Re: Percieved Bias and Game Balancing

Post#60 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:20 am

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

Order lacks tanks and healers because Order tanks and healers do not look visually appealing like Destro does.

Same deal with Slayer. No one plays it despite Slayer being an amazingly good class, because no one wants to be a three foot tall shirtless midget.

This is the real origin of the Order class population imbalance. Everything stems from the fact that Order's cool-looking classes are generally bad and non-viable; everyone picks them because they look cool, and then they perform poorly, and it snowballs from there.

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