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Quality of Life Changes

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wargrimnir
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Re: Quality of Life Changes

Post#11 » Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:30 pm

Acidic wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:06 pm
Kaelang wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:58 am
The HoT and DoT mechanic was put in to save people watching their dots and trying to catch the timer at the right time to optimise their routes. Sure, buffs and DoT did get a slight 'buff' in the sense that players don't have to micro manage them as strictly.

Although we say that QoL changes have made it into a patch, this doesn't mean every change was QoL.

Damage scaling, DoTs double ticket etc are not the reason for the change, and should be seen as bugs and issues. Therefore reported correctly on the Bugtracker.

We have already released two hotfixes, both of which in one way or another address issues arisen.
Y not an issue with effort to fix bugs, turn around is quite (edit very) good on that note, but effectively buffing range in keep take when already Destro had issue defending/taking would not have been my first choice. But this patch and the general feedback of balance based on feedback from players when we know how manny WL and BW on order side ever agreed that they were over powered , well suppose another 3 years till slayer *7 with cd reduction, ID+rampage is considered too much.
The excuse that global changes drastically impact Destro specifically is a sad excuse for the real reason they're getting rolled. Population shifted, pug leaders are playing Order. That's all. There has yet to be any support that either Rampage or GTCD need changes. The forum threads ongoing are nothing new, and we don't care. People just need something to whine about when they die in PvP, and they will find something no matter what gets nerfed. It's a lot easier to complain that balance is a problem, when the real problem is behind the keyboard.
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Wam
Legacy RR80
Posts: 687

Re: Quality of Life Changes

Post#12 » Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:15 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:30 pm
Acidic wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:06 pm
Kaelang wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:58 am
The HoT and DoT mechanic was put in to save people watching their dots and trying to catch the timer at the right time to optimise their routes. Sure, buffs and DoT did get a slight 'buff' in the sense that players don't have to micro manage them as strictly.

Although we say that QoL changes have made it into a patch, this doesn't mean every change was QoL.

Damage scaling, DoTs double ticket etc are not the reason for the change, and should be seen as bugs and issues. Therefore reported correctly on the Bugtracker.

We have already released two hotfixes, both of which in one way or another address issues arisen.
Y not an issue with effort to fix bugs, turn around is quite (edit very) good on that note, but effectively buffing range in keep take when already Destro had issue defending/taking would not have been my first choice. But this patch and the general feedback of balance based on feedback from players when we know how manny WL and BW on order side ever agreed that they were over powered , well suppose another 3 years till slayer *7 with cd reduction, ID+rampage is considered too much.
The excuse that global changes drastically impact Destro specifically is a sad excuse for the real reason they're getting rolled. Population shifted, pug leaders are playing Order. That's all. There has yet to be any support that either Rampage or GTCD need changes. The forum threads ongoing are nothing new, and we don't care. People just need something to whine about when they die in PvP, and they will find something no matter what gets nerfed. It's a lot easier to complain that balance is a problem, when the real problem is behind the keyboard.
Fun fact is war... BW do more dmg than these other classes, but nobody really uses this class properly anymore (they are mostly Rain of fire bots, so goes under the radar) proper dps players on proper dps classes and you get similar results (people complain they die like you pointed out)

Don't get me wrong slayer is strong, but so is so many other things on both sides "IF USED RIGHT" with proper support.

Also if we run full white lion and worked on that it would be moaned about also...

There is counters to everything, and a proper slayer train is difficult, but so is a proper anything should be difficult to beat. Magus out damages slayer does that mean nerf magus? 8-)
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sogeou
Posts: 260

Re: Quality of Life Changes

Post#13 » Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:21 pm

Wam wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:15 pm
Fun fact is war... BW do more dmg than these other classes, but nobody really uses this class properly anymore (they are mostly Rain of fire bots, so goes under the radar) proper dps players on proper dps classes and you get similar results (people complain they die like you pointed out)
AoE, single target? You make a big claim, show me some proof. BW has better AoE than, might think by looking at it, but sorc combo with IW with chop faster has always been strong. Spamming 1600 crits non stop for a few GCD is super strong.


Also, sorc single target > BW.

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Wam
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Posts: 687

Re: Quality of Life Changes

Post#14 » Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:47 pm

sogeou wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:21 pm
Wam wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:15 pm
Fun fact is war... BW do more dmg than these other classes, but nobody really uses this class properly anymore (they are mostly Rain of fire bots, so goes under the radar) proper dps players on proper dps classes and you get similar results (people complain they die like you pointed out)
AoE, single target? You make a big claim, show me some proof. BW has better AoE than, might think by looking at it, but sorc combo with IW with chop faster has always been strong. Spamming 1600 crits non stop for a few GCD is super strong.


Also, sorc single target > BW.
AOE BW

and nah ... Machine gun IW has been nerfed on this server, we used it at one point and it was a tad bit OP but that was with different target cap and solo fighting zerg. Current IW/CF is the watered down version and doesn't compete with BW bombing (more procs) the only thing is range is nice (so for kiting is good, or trimming bigger numbers in orvr)

If old machine gun IW existed with improved target cap meta would look alot different in orvr and forums would explode :lol:

AOE BW can do more dmg than these slayer pain trains, the issue is lack of good BW's left on the server and also the playstyle is a bit dated, there is some counters too... but most people wouldn't handle the raw dmg.

The lack of morale dmg/bomb makes BW deathball a more serious threat, order has good deathball potential. Just nobody running a tight enough ship with it and its all sloppy so looks weaker than it actually is. Maybe will have to dust it off and work on it sometime.
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mubbl
Posts: 241

Re: Quality of Life Changes

Post#15 » Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:49 pm

sogeou wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:21 pm
Wam wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:15 pm
Fun fact is war... BW do more dmg than these other classes, but nobody really uses this class properly anymore (they are mostly Rain of fire bots, so goes under the radar) proper dps players on proper dps classes and you get similar results (people complain they die like you pointed out)
AoE, single target? You make a big claim, show me some proof. BW has better AoE than, might think by looking at it, but sorc combo with IW with chop faster has always been strong. Spamming 1600 crits non stop for a few GCD is super strong.


Also, sorc single target > BW.
Wam fasta then light
Last edited by mubbl on Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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wargrimnir
Head Game Master
Posts: 6760
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Re: Quality of Life Changes

Post#16 » Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:54 pm

Wam wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:15 pm

Fun fact is war... BW do more dmg than these other classes, but nobody really uses this class properly anymore (they are mostly Rain of fire bots, so goes under the radar) proper dps players on proper dps classes and you get similar results (people complain they die like you pointed out)

Don't get me wrong slayer is strong, but so is so many other things on both sides "IF USED RIGHT" with proper support.

Also if we run full white lion and worked on that it would be moaned about also...

There is counters to everything, and a proper slayer train is difficult, but so is a proper anything should be difficult to beat. Magus out damages slayer does that mean nerf magus? 8-)
Destro went from dominating the server to getting crushed in the matter of two weeks with no significant class balance specific changes made. It's not a class balance issue, it's the result of player behavior, which in itself isn't an issue that development can fix. Any realm that gets more organized is going to have more success. This is what people have been saying for weeks, and it only took reaching a tipping point for the battlefield to flip.

There really isn't much in the way of evenly balanced realms, no matter how hard you try. When it comes down to it, there's going to be periods where one side or the other is winning. Class Balance isn't going to fix it. We balance based on the merits of the classes themselves, not on the current state of the game. Players can easily organize and demonstrate overwhelming data that a class is broken and needs nerf (see WL city warband maybe?), but that just means they generated a lot of data and coordinated heavily to do it. The majority on the server are who really need to be catered to, not the abusive/exploitative minority that rallies the troops to force changes using specific compositions to overwhelm the conversation about "X is broken look how badly we can break it when we have 24 people dedicated to breaking it".

TLDR, Devs aren't stupid. Balance is balance, not pandering and reactionism.
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sogeou
Posts: 260

Re: Quality of Life Changes

Post#17 » Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:05 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:54 pm
Destro went from dominating the server to getting crushed in the matter of two weeks with no significant class balance specific changes made. It's not a class balance issue, it's the result of player behavior, which in itself isn't an issue that development can fix. Any realm that gets more organized is going to have more success. This is what people have been saying for weeks, and it only took reaching a tipping point for the battlefield to flip.

There really isn't much in the way of evenly balanced realms, no matter how hard you try. When it comes down to it, there's going to be periods where one side or the other is winning. Class Balance isn't going to fix it. We balance based on the merits of the classes themselves, not on the current state of the game. Players can easily organize and demonstrate overwhelming data that a class is broken and needs nerf (see WL city warband maybe?), but that just means they generated a lot of data and coordinated heavily to do it. The majority on the server are who really need to be catered to, not the abusive/exploitative minority that rallies the troops to force changes using specific compositions to overwhelm the conversation about "X is broken look how badly we can break it when we have 24 people dedicated to breaking it".

TLDR, Devs aren't stupid. Balance is balance, not pandering and reactionism.

It is because 100+ destro went to play order. Nothing more than that. 3-4 large guilds went to order. That is causing a pop imbalance right now. If only 1 went instead of 4, that would have been ok.

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Acidic
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Re: Quality of Life Changes

Post#18 » Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:25 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:30 pm
Acidic wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:06 pm
Kaelang wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:58 am
The HoT and DoT mechanic was put in to save people watching their dots and trying to catch the timer at the right time to optimise their routes. Sure, buffs and DoT did get a slight 'buff' in the sense that players don't have to micro manage them as strictly.

Although we say that QoL changes have made it into a patch, this doesn't mean every change was QoL.

Damage scaling, DoTs double ticket etc are not the reason for the change, and should be seen as bugs and issues. Therefore reported correctly on the Bugtracker.

We have already released two hotfixes, both of which in one way or another address issues arisen.
Y not an issue with effort to fix bugs, turn around is quite (edit very) good on that note, but effectively buffing range in keep take when already Destro had issue defending/taking would not have been my first choice. But this patch and the general feedback of balance based on feedback from players when we know how manny WL and BW on order side ever agreed that they were over powered , well suppose another 3 years till slayer *7 with cd reduction, ID+rampage is considered too much.
The excuse that global changes drastically impact Destro specifically is a sad excuse for the real reason they're getting rolled. Population shifted, pug leaders are playing Order. That's all. There has yet to be any support that either Rampage or GTCD need changes. The forum threads ongoing are nothing new, and we don't care. People just need something to whine about when they die in PvP, and they will find something no matter what gets nerfed. It's a lot easier to complain that balance is a problem, when the real problem is behind the keyboard.
The response here looks and feels like what I want to see, my issue is a bit more around flow of r3cent buffs and nerfs as well as QoL change appear to be driven by the exact opposite motivation that you indicate, but as with most things could be me not seeing the thinking behind , joining dots without numbers can produce manny pictures.

Population shift y I care not much about that and consider buffs nerfs against population as a is weird wow type balance.

As a side yes I unfortunately for me have a massive issue on rampage (right or wrong ) and can not see how a 3 point skill with high uptime should nullify a tanks almost full spec points , that alone is wrong. No low level skill should do that but that has manny manny threads dedicated to it and no point here.

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havartii
Posts: 199

Re: Quality of Life Changes

Post#19 » Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:30 pm

I don't remember making this a post about a specific realm or class, the changes made affect healers (nerf to absorbs). It has nothing to do with the person behind the keyboard or the fact that Order is zerging. This is a direct nerf to healers and a direct buff to dps. We already have things like buff head an pure to know when we need to refresh our dot's , this just makes facerolling mage class too easy. The time to kill is very high and was not needed. I appreciate the devs who put hard work into making this, but you will see less and less people wanting to play healer as you crank up the damage. If there were classes that were abusing the absorbs, identify those classes and nerf them. Staying alive and keeping your team alive is hard enough as it is.

Omegus
Posts: 477

Re: Quality of Life Changes

Post#20 » Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:04 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:54 pm
Destro went from dominating the server to getting crushed in the matter of two weeks with no significant class balance specific changes made. It's not a class balance issue, it's the result of player behavior, which in itself isn't an issue that development can fix. Any realm that gets more organized is going to have more success. This is what people have been saying for weeks, and it only took reaching a tipping point for the battlefield to flip.
Destro started getting crushed in forts after the absorb changes. Destro have always had a harder time taking forts over order partially due to class balance issues and partially due to differences in overpopulated classes, and while the absorb nerf in theory affected both sides equally, for destro and what it has to face when taking order keeps it proved to the the tipping point that caused almost every single fort attack to fail over and over and over again. It was tough before the changes and seemingly impossible afterwards. Throw in all the various bugs with the combat formulas and the classes which have benefitted from them and it's been a very rough time for destro players.

After enough time spend doing this plenty of people did a "**** this **** I'm out" and flipped to the side where it's easier to gear characters in invader. Then another patch hit which increased the number of invader bags which is perfect for the side winning forts as it's one shared pool of bags (why btw?) so players are incentivised more to play the side that wins forts easier which is currently order.

Remember when the minor change to end zones caused massive changes to player behaviour? Well, the bug fixes / changes and added rewards have done the same to forts. You know it's bad when order are pushing against locked ICs just to farm invader tokens and bags quicker without caring for a 1 star city siege.

Hopefully it calms down a bit when enough people have geared their characters, but that doesn't mean the underlying issues with destro in forts are fixed.
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