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Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

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Finblast
Posts: 6

Re: Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

Post#21 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:44 am

Sulorie wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:41 am
Finblast wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:32 am
wargrimnir wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:27 pm
Stop playing solo. You can join a group of people and play better. That's the natural progression of the game.

If you just want to pug and chill, there's a dedicated pug scenario for you 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
That won't solve the problem of unfair matches, I don't want to play in a premade that stomps the opposite side 95% of the time. I want good and even matches, where you actually have to use your skills to win.
You assume you win automatically just because you joined a premade? How about people, who put in the effort to form a group usually put more effort into their play as well?
There are people, who play solo, who know the buttons to press in order to play well but those usually wouldn't support such a thread.
I don't even have words for that response.

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saupreusse
Former Staff
Posts: 2195

Re: Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

Post#22 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:18 am

To be fair i havent seen a single mage in the event sc so far. So it seems like they do in fact not get invites to 6 man premades.
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billyk
Posts: 36

Re: Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

Post#23 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:32 am

Sulorie wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:20 am
billyk wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:45 am

Excellent idea in theory, but it won't work in practice because there is the problem that Order classes are all over the place: 2H SM is dps but would count as tank, AM is dps but would count as heal etc., which would result in not getting 2-2-2 even if it's 2-2-2 on paper. You have similar problems in city when the dps AM becomes healer champion and of course that doesn't work out. In essence, destro has more tank and healer classes while Order has more dps classes.
Do you intentionally spread misinformation or did you only made a wild guess?

Dps AM are under no circumstances considered a healer in city, as champs are selected by healing score and I doubt you want to tell me, that it was the only healer class in the instance. If so, one more reason not to join solo into city siege.

A 2h SM is not considered to be dps unless you slot certain tactics, which nobody right minded would slot to begin with. The weapon alone isn't the deciding factor, the protection score is and shield tanks have it a lot easier to raise it. 2h tanks can be top rank though, but it just means other tanks were slacking.
It's pretty easy.

>Get forced 2-2-2
>destro gets, for example, 1 Chosen, 1 BO + 1 WE, 1 SH + 2 Zealots
>Order gets, for example, 1 2H SM, 1KotbS + 2 SL + 1 AM, 1 WP
For Order, this isn't 2-2-2, it's 4 DPS, 1 Tank, 1 Healer because for all intents and purposes AM isn't a healer but ranged DPS with a few hots and 2H SM isn't a tank but a tough single target DPS with some CC. Destro will win this scenario, but the matchup algorithm checking for 2-2-2 will see nothing wrong.

The problem is with the class design on Order. You should stop seeing AMs as healers who need to l2p and 2H SMs as tanks because they really suck at those roles and do much better as DPS. The solution would be either to re-design Order classes so they actually do their jobs (probably impossible to do) OR ban certain builds (probably hamstringing your pop numbers) OR leave everything as is, introduce the 2-2-2 algorithm BUT officially making AMs and 2H SMs DPS classes (Which wouldn't change much really except really making it obvious that class balance between realms doesn't exist - that Order is mostly DPS classes while destro is well-balanced).

Sulorie
Posts: 4982

Re: Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

Post#24 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:41 am

billyk wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:32 am
It's pretty easy.

>Get forced 2-2-2
>destro gets, for example, 1 Chosen, 1 BO + 1 WE, 1 SH + 2 Zealots
>Order gets, for example, 1 2H SM, 1KotbS + 2 SL + 1 AM, 1 WP
For Order, this isn't 2-2-2, it's 4 DPS, 1 Tank, 1 Healer because for all intents and purposes AM isn't a healer but ranged DPS with a few hots and 2H SM isn't a tank but a tough single target DPS with some CC. Destro will win this scenario, but the matchup algorithm checking for 2-2-2 will see nothing wrong.

The problem is with the class design on Order. You should stop seeing AMs as healers who need to l2p and 2H SMs as tanks because they really suck at those roles and do much better as DPS. The solution would be either to re-design Order classes so they actually do their jobs (probably impossible to do) OR ban certain builds (probably hamstringing your pop numbers) OR leave everything as is, introduce the 2-2-2 algorithm BUT officially making AMs and 2H SMs DPS classes (Which wouldn't change much really except really making it obvious that class balance between realms doesn't exist - that Order is mostly DPS classes while destro is well-balanced).
Matchmaking isn't working the way you think it works.

"for all intents and purposes AM isn't a healer but ranged DPS with a few hots and 2H SM isn't a tank but a tough single target DPS with some CC"
What did I just read? :shock:
Dying is no option.

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Kylashandra
Posts: 10

Re: Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

Post#25 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:44 am

The "stop going PU and get into groups" rhetoric is an easy one, but it also ignores a few of the main issues :

- you can't compete against Sov premades if you are not sov also, even with a premade of organized people knowing their job.
- for some classes it's not a matter of respec to fit in, it's just that having that class in group is most of the time an auto lose condition. Same goes for RR levels, you won't get to win vs premades if your premade isn't made of 70+ people, and that excludes quite alot of people actually.
- Order has no answer to the destro melee ball for quite some time unless going with a very organized and high geared group. I did a simple test during the Battle for Praag week end sc (and it was a statistically significant one because I had to do 30 Scs for the twitch event quest) : going PU on both side, lost 25 out of 30 Sc Order side, won 8 out of 10 destro side. The class synergies are currently clearly in favor of destro as long as they have 3 groups + and an open field with no choke points and that includes going full PU on both sides.

So yes the idea of making a week end scenario for PU would not address all the current issues but would at least remove one layer of frustration for quite alot of people who are either not yet 70+, not playing one of the meta classes or people like me who have always enjoyed SCs over RvR and don't always have their guildmates logged on.

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adzcriz
Posts: 22

Re: Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

Post#26 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:52 am

And the attitudes in this thread are pretty much the reason I refuse to do SC's now. "Git Gud" "Lol Reroll" "lol Respec" "lol get a grup" etc. The sort of elitism I expect from COD players.
Cykosis - Zealot ~ Resident Psychotic Healer

Sulorie
Posts: 4982

Re: Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

Post#27 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:05 pm

adzcriz wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:52 am
And the attitudes in this thread are pretty much the reason I refuse to do SC's now. "Git Gud" "Lol Reroll" "lol Respec" "lol get a grup" etc. The sort of elitism I expect from COD players.
How you can deal with life, when "respec" and "get a group" (in a grp-based MMO) in a videogame is a sign of elitism? :roll:
Dying is no option.

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Nameless
Posts: 852

Re: Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

Post#28 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:08 pm

Make the event sc 6 man olny just once and see the feedback. For many it will be okish when 2 pug grous face other 2 pug groups
Mostly harmless

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adzcriz
Posts: 22

Re: Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

Post#29 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:11 pm

Sulorie wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:05 pm
adzcriz wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:52 am
And the attitudes in this thread are pretty much the reason I refuse to do SC's now. "Git Gud" "Lol Reroll" "lol Respec" "lol get a grup" etc. The sort of elitism I expect from COD players.
How you can deal with life, when "respec" and "get a group" (in a grp-based MMO) in a videogame is a sign of elitism? :roll:
Stagnation. suggesting theres only 1 way to play a game and only play certain classes, leads to repetition, leads to stagnation and leads to death of games. which coincidently is what happened in the first place.

By making classes and styles of play incompatible with progress regardless of the persons enjoyment of that style of play whilst simultaneously deriding people who want to play their way is hardly conducive to a healthy game state.

People wont play whats not fun, If they are not deriving enjoyment from something, its stops getting played or aspects stop getting played. SC pop times are a good indicator, not enough doing them, why? Forts atm i am avoiding, 45 minutes wasted with little to show for it.

Stagnation.
Cykosis - Zealot ~ Resident Psychotic Healer

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oneangryflamer
Posts: 13

Re: Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

Post#30 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:13 pm

adzcriz wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:52 am
And the attitudes in this thread are pretty much the reason I refuse to do SC's now. "Git Gud" "Lol Reroll" "lol Respec" "lol get a grup" etc. The sort of elitism I expect from COD players.
The problem is, that this attitude is also shown by the devs @wargrimmnir and they dont even move an inch to the players who are not in tryhard-mode. Just look at this forum. I really dont know how many threads are posted which similiar topics and the reaction is always, get a guild, build a premade blablabla. Building a premade is time consuming...if it is going to happen. And if you are not able to build one or get a slot in one. You are ****, thats it!

I have no clue why the devs have such a problem with giving the solo or pug players ab better chance at competing? Make Premades only join ranked, period! If they dont join then, cause they fear a hard competition, theire problem.
Same with forcing hybrids to join sc's to get their dps gear. Why? Shouldt i be able to decide which game mode i spend my time in? At least give the hybrid classes the chance to exchange their currency into opressors or integrate a invader dps variant.

Maybe the devs should realize that the majority of the players are not the fmj, pnp tryhards. The pugs are the masses and if they leave the game is dead!

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