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Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

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Hardkoar
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Posts: 242

Re: Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

Post#71 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:16 am

diedrake wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:00 am
Hardkoar wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:35 am
There's more than just spec. RR, Gear, Class.
Unless you are of a specific class with a specific RR and amount of gear you wont be getting in a premade.

So you are forced to play a specific class, have the amount of RR and Gear required to play the game ? There's a reason why premades are all made of the same comps, it's the current meta and if you want a chance at winning, that is the best setup.
So if you like playing any class or spec that is not part of what the game wants you to play right now, well tough luck, you are not welcome here.
All of that could be easily fixed by separating Pugs from Premades. I can't stress this enough, no premade worth mentioning or pvp player will ever have anything against separating Pugs and Premade signups for scenarios/bgs.

If the issue is the amount of Queue time increase because there are not enough premades, then it is obvious that the pugs are but free kills to entertain the few.

A possible solution to this would be to count a team as Premade when more than 3 players are Queued together. Three or less will count and register as part of the Pug scenario.
Easy on paper but that can also be easy to exploit to. Premades could q in 2s or 3s at the same time. Game prob wont reconize it as a premade but still has a good chance both teams of threes would get into the same match due to low population.

A true "Solo" q would be 1v1 matches... Where solo players dont have to coordinate nor deal with teamwork. But then you'd have a whole different can of worms there too as certain classes would dominate "cough" am/shams for example.
Sure thing people will definitely try to workaround it and queue in 2s or 3s like you said at a chance of being teamed up together, but you could allow priority Queue to pug Scenarios to people that are Queued solo or simply ensuring that atleast 50% of the Sc signup is made of solo Queue.
There are many ways to enable this possible fix and find solutions to rising issues, but the first step has to be made and it does not appear to be something even considered by the devs.
I wouldn't go as far as 1v1 solo SC matches, the idea is not to alter the shape of the game but to simply lower the huge imbalance of pugs vs premades and allow everyone to have a shot at having fun.

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hammerhead
Posts: 248

Re: Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

Post#72 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:47 am

You say that someone owes you something. You pug you go into a game like so that you have gear progress, but in fact you just create a load on the server. Half of you will drop out in a year when (or if not) you achieve results. You come and say this should be this and this is this, because this is how it works in my experience. No. Nobody should and will not do anything for you here. I played solo a few years before and never went to the forum and asked to saddle life about a pugger easier. We have already written above that this is an absolutely private matter. The only time I criticized the general course of the company and also said that there would be no one in the game and you know? the average population density just got higher. They made equal conditions for everyone to prove themselves, more than half of the things in the game work just because it was more convenient for you. If you think that the mythical 2/2/2 will add a skill to you, you are too too wrong.And do the devteam what you ask now, you will howl the next day. Because two dozen DPSAMs / spaner engineers and other SW will not be able to get into any content at all.
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Sulorie
Posts: 5034

Re: Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

Post#73 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:41 pm

We already had 2-2-2 matching for normal sc, like solo ranked and it was a horribly experience as there were significantly less pops.
For solo you have pug sc. When you dislike the random setups, either relog to a missing archetype or build a group, to take out the random factor.

All you suggest was already tested here, it's not like nobody else thought of it before.

There are a lot viable order classes for ranked but for some reason order ranked is dead and the destro in queue at EU prime time get no pops.
Dying is no option.

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Brakh
Posts: 20

Re: Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

Post#74 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:13 pm

When one person says there is something wrong with you, you can completely disregard it with clear councious. But there is like 8 page discussion about the problem where majority ask for fix. Scenarios are often queued while there is no action in pvp lakes. There is also certain progression path behind scenarios and for many classes anathema/revered gear is BiS. Grinding these 1200 crests is already tremendous task. Average scenario lasts for about 7 min, lets be generous and assume win ratio is around 50/50, +/- one crest from time to time for beign mvp. Summing this all up Its around 370 scenarios, lasting for 2700min without any other activities like queue time, rvr, nothing, just sitting and grinding instances through. The whole problem is rather complex. Adding 2/2/2? No it will not change nothing. I have played with my guildies last weekend and we were stomping. Pugs, quickly mended premades etc. Ofc we lost some to superior comps better geared guys but we complete whole event in no time. Then the reflection came shortly after. By critting this poor conq BW for over 2k, making corpse throws and performing all these tickling my ego actions I realized, dude I am sorry I just completly messed few min of your life, you are not mindless bot but dude like me wanting to complete something that is behind thick brick for you. You are advertising this game via twitch events to common gamers but can you please share statistics how many of newly created accounts are still active after lets say 2 months? Want to improve this? Then make game more appealing to common folk. Utilizing already implemented solutions like mmr rating(extend it to all sc), improved pairing system and even ffa/full premade only groups. Its costs you almost nothing. All these die hards vets will competee with each other in ranked play and new players will have opportunity to fight against similar skilled/geared guys.

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wargrimnir
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Re: Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

Post#75 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:28 pm

I'm not sure if this really needs to be said, but hardcore niche PvP games aren't appealing to common folk. You're either coming here because you're a big Warhammer fan, a big PvP fan, or just looking for a free game to play. That last category might convert into the first two, but if they don't that's fine. We're not around to be a casual-friendly watered down version of Warhammer that has mass market appeal and hand-holding mechanics that put you in the safest little bubbles. PvP is unfair, not because it's designed to be unfair, but because the ways you can take advantage of the systems are not embraced by casual and solo players. That's a problem that players need to fix within themselves, not systems devs are responsible for.

As a new player, a casual player, or a solo player, the path to success and enjoyment in this game is making friends, creating groups, and using the advantages inherent in doing so to win more often than you lose. All the fairness and balancing in the world are not going to change that you are going to lose much more often than not if you are not finding groups and playing in a coordinated manner. This is a PvP game, you are not intended to win every battle, and if you put out a minimum effort you should expect to lose most of them.

Also, regarding die-hard vets. The vast majority of them are not actually interested in fighting each other in ranked play, or they would do so regularly. They're interested in getting the next piece of BIS gear, and if that gear isn't available from ranked then they're not going to do it. If ranked isn't compelling on it's own merit of providing a leaderboard for people who want to see how they compare to their peers and provide a way to track their personal progression, then propping it up with increasingly broken gear is hardly worthwhile.
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stealthc98
Posts: 22

Re: Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

Post#76 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:18 pm

Why not rework the meta? Kind of over this aoe, op healer, op tank nonsense.

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wargrimnir
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Re: Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

Post#77 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:33 pm

stealthc98 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:18 pm
Why not rework the meta? Kind of over this aoe, op healer, op tank nonsense.
Meta is not something designed, it's a result of adapting to changes. You can change the meta by running comps that expose weaknesses the current meta is unable to compensate for.
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Dackle
Posts: 128

Re: Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

Post#78 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:59 pm

Solo gank, two-man kite groups, and small-scale battles including SC's are fun. You don't have to buy into the megaWAR many try to push on you.

Not everybody has to buy into oRvR 4 WB vs. 4 WB mega battles where the good groups coordinate positioning and moral bombs, and the decent ones ball up and smash their heads on their keyboards like heavy metal stars! The bad ones get rolled by the coordinated other side, depending on who signs on what side, when...

They don't have the expertise to create a queueing system like this game deserves, similar to an online poker site. The tighter the criteria, the longer the queue. Open queue or set specific parameters.

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Dackle
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Re: Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

Post#79 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:57 pm

Selectable 1 v 1, 3 v 3, 6 v 6, 12 v 12, 18 v 18, 24 v 24.

Have selectable parameters such as Matched/Unmatched (M/U) - Matched is 1 heal, 1 tank, 1dps in the 3 v 3 scenario, 2,2,2 for 6 v 6 etc.. Unmatched just fills the next slot based on criteria trying to fit the archetype slot first then random fill. Have the ability to check each parameter you desire based on your chosen criteria. Matched will obviously take some time to fil, but not if embraced by proper groups.

Rewards should be different based on the Group Size and M/U. Low-tier rewards for faster pops on 1's and 3's, mid-tier for 6's - 18's, top-tier for 24 v 24.

Obviously waiting for and getting a pop for a 24 v 24 matched SC would take some time (primetime) and/or coordination, as well as the desire. I would assume these rewards, higher level, would need to be gold bag worthy. I would consider making the "matched" matchmaking system transparent so you can see who you are queuing against and with.

There are other parameters that could be included such as, closed or open parties, maps, mmr, rank, scheduled, etc... or simply queue next available.

Hardkoar
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Posts: 242

Re: Make Pug SC second Event Sc every week

Post#80 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:04 pm

Dackle wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:59 pm
Solo gank, two-man kite groups, and small-scale battles including SC's are fun. You don't have to buy into the megaWAR many try to push on you.

Not everybody has to buy into oRvR 4 WB vs. 4 WB mega battles where the good groups coordinate positioning and moral bombs, and the decent ones ball up and smash their heads on their keyboards like heavy metal stars! The bad ones get rolled by the coordinated other side, depending on who signs on what side, when...

They don't have the expertise to create a queueing system like this game deserves, similar to an online poker site. The tighter the criteria, the longer the queue. Open queue or set specific parameters.
Altough Open RVR is great for both 4 wb vs 4 wb and solo/ duo / 6 man teams, SC's are a different story. You can't just duo kite a premade or solo gank it. Sc's are literally made with premades in mind, the only solution here is to separate premades Vs pugs or watch as pugs / solo queuers stop doing scenarios all togheter. Especially now with the new weapon upgrade from Subjugator, not having to grind the SC weapon is a huge pro to keep people playing the game without getting farmed for days on end for their next upgrade.

Possible solutions have been shared throughout but the reality is rather summed up on what Wargrimnir said:

''Also, regarding die-hard vets. The vast majority of them are not actually interested in fighting each other in ranked play, or they would do so regularly. They're interested in getting the next piece of BIS gear, and if that gear isn't available from ranked then they're not going to do it. If ranked isn't compelling on it's own merit of providing a leaderboard for people who want to see how they compare to their peers and provide a way to track their personal progression, then propping it up with increasingly broken gear is hardly worthwhile''.

So it all boils down to Should we force people to not play with their friends if they want to do Scenarios or should we force solo players to get stomped?

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