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Fort Win Rate Tracker

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farng84
Posts: 140

Re: Fort Win Rate Tracker

Post#21 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:47 pm

Valantine wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:58 pm
I agree that some of the logic in this thread doesn't hold. It's definitely not an "Order is OP!" issue, because the city results (Destro often winning overall city score) contradicts that notion.

I was in Forts that went down to Destro earlier this week, and it was because the organized Destro guilds were on and pushing into the Fort like you need to push to break the defenders. Its about organization and strategy.

The old days of pushing Forts with sheer numbers are over.
The issue with fort is that people who gets reservation can enter, you cannot be sure that only organised WBs with optimal composition will enter... Lower levels and completely unorganised pugs access forts on both sides, please don't make it look like order enters in fort only as a well oiled war machine, because that's a silly lie. Other than that forts always had population cap and lower cap favours the attacker as devs also mentioned (in theory the lower cap should help destro pushing some more forts).

Don't bias the thread as this is just a fort win rate tracker, as it was done for cities time ago, since it was a good idea for city it might be good for forts too as it could give us a better perspective of what happens :).
On the contrary, is totally legit to bias people derailing the tread or claiming some bullshit like "order is totally op and need instant nerf!"

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andy
Posts: 30

Re: Fort Win Rate Tracker

Post#22 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:51 pm

Fort should be limit to 40/40 players.
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farng84
Posts: 140

Re: Fort Win Rate Tracker

Post#23 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:00 pm

ChicagoJoe wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:36 pm
havartii wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:04 am
They keep buffing order side, the SW does crazy aoe now and I believe they fixed dragons gun on w/h , 2 more classes to stack aoe with the engi's and b/w. With nothing for destro side, mara aoe nerfed, choppa aoe nerfed. Yes it is a team game and composition is vital to wins/ loss. I think they are doing what they can to try and level out the matching with forts. Order just has better aoe atm. Prove me wrong ?
You may want to check your facts. A lot (read most) of the ranged AOE doesn't stack with either side. Only things that mostly stack is melee aoe, which destro has plenty of.

Destro is optimizing warbands for city dominance. This doesn't work well in every situation. Melee heals don't work well in fortress takes, because you can't make it inside to start lifetap heals. Almost no one in destro is pulling with magus anymore. If destro had 2-3 more magus pulling with fortresses you could easily disrupt the order tank walls.
What doesn't stack are aoes left on the ground (e.g. rain of fire or dissolving mist) but direct hits (e.g. fiery blast) do as expected. The difference is that melee dps don't create static "pools" of aoe but only go for direct aoe hits.

I agree with your other points, although I would say in general destro could use many more ranged dps the pull could come from magus or other classes. For example, I think decently placed mara would be able to pull tanks and disrupt the wall while magus and sorc bomb inside the room applying pressure and killing dps before and during the push. Strategies will hardly work without proper rdps pressure.

Valantine
Posts: 9

Re: Fort Win Rate Tracker

Post#24 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:21 pm

farng84 wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:47 pm
Valantine wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:58 pm
I agree that some of the logic in this thread doesn't hold. It's definitely not an "Order is OP!" issue, because the city results (Destro often winning overall city score) contradicts that notion.

I was in Forts that went down to Destro earlier this week, and it was because the organized Destro guilds were on and pushing into the Fort like you need to push to break the defenders. Its about organization and strategy.

The old days of pushing Forts with sheer numbers are over.
The issue with fort is that people who gets reservation can enter, you cannot be sure that only organised WBs with optimal composition will enter... Lower levels and completely unorganised pugs access forts on both sides, please don't make it look like order enters in fort only as a well oiled war machine, because that's a silly lie. Other than that forts always had population cap and lower cap favours the attacker as devs also mentioned (in theory the lower cap should help destro pushing some more forts).

Don't bias the thread as this is just a fort win rate tracker, as it was done for cities time ago, since it was a good idea for city it might be good for forts too as it could give us a better perspective of what happens :).
On the contrary, is totally legit to bias people derailing the tread or claiming some bullshit like "order is totally op and need instant nerf!"
Yeah that argument doesn't hold water, either (agreeing with you, btw)--Order is contending with the same problems they're whining about. To all the detractors: you think Order is entering these Forts with premade Warbands? Last night I was solo healing 1 tank and 4 RDPS at Reikwald, so please...

sogeou
Posts: 316

Re: Fort Win Rate Tracker

Post#25 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:27 pm

havartii wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:04 am
They keep buffing order side, the SW does crazy aoe now and I believe they fixed dragons gun on w/h , 2 more classes to stack aoe with the engi's and b/w. With nothing for destro side, mara aoe nerfed, choppa aoe nerfed. Yes it is a team game and composition is vital to wins/ loss. I think they are doing what they can to try and level out the matching with forts. Order just has better aoe atm. Prove me wrong ?
Wait, everything you posted is bullll shoot. SW does NOT do crazy AoE damage at all. Dragon gun on WH did not get any buff regards to damage or procs hitting doing more damage. Destro just sucks at taking forts because they are all dps tanks.

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Gurf
Posts: 229

Re: Fort Win Rate Tracker

Post#26 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:24 pm

If your organised warband is in the zone for a long time it will get a lot of kills and wrack up contribution faster than anyone except maybe a handful of people who ran loads of supplies. So if you want to get your warband into a fort it isn't that hard on a normal day, all you have to do is push the zone and earn it, half the people in the zone just go afk then pve the keep lord, it's not hard to get more contribution than them.

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farng84
Posts: 140

Re: Fort Win Rate Tracker

Post#27 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:39 pm

Sure Gurf, will you pay us a stipend to perform like that and ensure that our organised wb can be online and access the fort? Gosh if you are there sponsoring organised fort wbs I can understand why Order only brings 2-2-2 with 40/40+ and meta composition to forts

Jokes aside, sometimes, by the time organised wb are formed and enter the zone it's almost fort time, they might not have the time to earn enough contribution.
This situation is the same on both sides.
You did not bring a single useful point to the discussion mate...It was better when you simply claimed destro should roll more rdps, at least that is correct

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Gurf
Posts: 229

Re: Fort Win Rate Tracker

Post#28 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:56 pm

Well if you have put nothing into the zone you haven't earned your entrance to a fort. But Order loses plenty of forts , especially when they have no organised warbands on, which is the way it should be it should be hard to take without proper warbands.

There are plenty of options for Destro though even when mdps heavy, how about the mdps tactic which reduces 25% of range and magic damage, or BG morale 4 which heals your party on hit, or the Mara tactic and morale which reflects damage, most these tools aren't even being used.

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Jabba
Posts: 275

Re: Fort Win Rate Tracker

Post#29 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:14 pm

billyk wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:25 am
Why can destro win keeps but not forts?
Because destro can only zerg and gank, which works for keeps but not for forts.
If destro was really weaker, they wouldn't make it to forts in the first place and Order would be in IC 24/7, see: Underpowered Order at the start of the year.
That's all.
You say Destro isn't weaker. But then you also point out yourself that destro can only win keeps when they massively outnumber order. This would imply that destro are in fact weaker because they can only win because of massive numbers imbalance to their favour.

Not saying I believe this is the case, just pointing out your argument is kinda crap.
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M0rw47h
Posts: 634

Re: Fort Win Rate Tracker

Post#30 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:23 pm

Jabba wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:14 pm
billyk wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:25 am
Why can destro win keeps but not forts?
Because destro can only zerg and gank, which works for keeps but not for forts.
If destro was really weaker, they wouldn't make it to forts in the first place and Order would be in IC 24/7, see: Underpowered Order at the start of the year.
That's all.
You say Destro isn't weaker. But then you also point out yourself that destro can only win keeps when they massively outnumber order. This would imply that destro are in fact weaker because they can only win because of massive numbers imbalance to their favour.

Not saying I believe this is the case, just pointing out your argument is kinda crap.
He wanted to use some random faction biased argument like "we much better, l2p on other side" I believe.
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