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Fort Win Rate Tracker

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Jabba
Posts: 275

Re: Fort Win Rate Tracker

Post#31 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:30 pm

It's pretty obvious why order win forts though, their static aoe classes are better or just more numerous, and the change to sw only made this worse. Fort is possibly the lowest skillcap content I think i've seen in any pvp game ever.

You pick a spot and stand in it so you don't have to think about your positioning.
You don't think about where you're placing your attacks as the attackers all get stuck in one spot.
You barely even think about what skills you use as they don't really matter or you can just spam the same one over and over.

Order just have classes (and more people playing those classes) that output far more pressure in this type of situation.
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ChicagoJoe
Posts: 155

Re: Fort Win Rate Tracker

Post#32 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:19 pm

farng84 wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:00 pm
ChicagoJoe wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:36 pm
havartii wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:04 am
They keep buffing order side, the SW does crazy aoe now and I believe they fixed dragons gun on w/h , 2 more classes to stack aoe with the engi's and b/w. With nothing for destro side, mara aoe nerfed, choppa aoe nerfed. Yes it is a team game and composition is vital to wins/ loss. I think they are doing what they can to try and level out the matching with forts. Order just has better aoe atm. Prove me wrong ?
You may want to check your facts. A lot (read most) of the ranged AOE doesn't stack with either side. Only things that mostly stack is melee aoe, which destro has plenty of.

Destro is optimizing warbands for city dominance. This doesn't work well in every situation. Melee heals don't work well in fortress takes, because you can't make it inside to start lifetap heals. Almost no one in destro is pulling with magus anymore. If destro had 2-3 more magus pulling with fortresses you could easily disrupt the order tank walls.
What doesn't stack are aoes left on the ground (e.g. rain of fire or dissolving mist) but direct hits (e.g. fiery blast) do as expected. The difference is that melee dps don't create static "pools" of aoe but only go for direct aoe hits.

I agree with your other points, although I would say in general destro could use many more ranged dps the pull could come from magus or other classes. For example, I think decently placed mara would be able to pull tanks and disrupt the wall while magus and sorc bomb inside the room applying pressure and killing dps before and during the push. Strategies will hardly work without proper rdps pressure.
Generally DOTs don't stack either, which is a HUGE part of the tool kit of order RDPS.

Look, I want destro to do better in fortresses. Lowering totals without addressing the ratio WILL NOT help the attackers. It will make it easier for a small organized defender group to stonewall an attacker base. Its not pugs on the attacker side hurting destro. It is that destro has been built to the city melee ball meta. It doesn't work unless you get into your defenders. Maybe wider doors would help attackers.

Lowering totals will hurt overall interest, the same way as unwinnable fortresses or cities hurts factions.

I think the some of the main issues are:
More 2H tanks on destro side. Less HTL.
More melee heals on destro side. Can't heal through damage spikes - more sustain life tap heals
Less RDPS on destro side. Can't mass finish.
Underutilization of magus pulls.
Both sides suffer with shaman/AM dps in large scale, though they work well solo/small scale and have a place in cities with insta rez.

I can't speak to leadership but some of the best guilds in the game are destro guilds.

Last night US time there were 2 order war bands with 5 total heals amongst almost 50 toons. Order was toast if destro could sustain a push.

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farng84
Posts: 140

Re: Fort Win Rate Tracker

Post#33 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:03 pm

Spoiler:
ChicagoJoe wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:19 pm
farng84 wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:00 pm
ChicagoJoe wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:36 pm
You may want to check your facts. A lot (read most) of the ranged AOE doesn't stack with either side. Only things that mostly stack is melee aoe, which destro has plenty of.

Destro is optimizing warbands for city dominance. This doesn't work well in every situation. Melee heals don't work well in fortress takes, because you can't make it inside to start lifetap heals. Almost no one in destro is pulling with magus anymore. If destro had 2-3 more magus pulling with fortresses you could easily disrupt the order tank walls.
What doesn't stack are aoes left on the ground (e.g. rain of fire or dissolving mist) but direct hits (e.g. fiery blast) do as expected. The difference is that melee dps don't create static "pools" of aoe but only go for direct aoe hits.

I agree with your other points, although I would say in general destro could use many more ranged dps the pull could come from magus or other classes. For example, I think decently placed mara would be able to pull tanks and disrupt the wall while magus and sorc bomb inside the room applying pressure and killing dps before and during the push. Strategies will hardly work without proper rdps pressure.
Generally DOTs don't stack either, which is a HUGE part of the tool kit of order RDPS.

Look, I want destro to do better in fortresses. Lowering totals without addressing the ratio WILL NOT help the attackers. It will make it easier for a small organized defender group to stonewall an attacker base. Its not pugs on the attacker side hurting destro. It is that destro has been built to the city melee ball meta. It doesn't work unless you get into your defenders. Maybe wider doors would help attackers.

Lowering totals will hurt overall interest, the same way as unwinnable fortresses or cities hurts factions.

I think the some of the main issues are:
More 2H tanks on destro side. Less HTL.
More melee heals on destro side. Can't heal through damage spikes - more sustain life tap heals
Less RDPS on destro side. Can't mass finish.
Underutilization of magus pulls.
Both sides suffer with shaman/AM dps in large scale, though they work well solo/small scale and have a place in cities with insta rez.

I can't speak to leadership but some of the best guilds in the game are destro guilds.

Last night US time there were 2 order war bands with 5 total heals amongst almost 50 toons. Order was toast if destro could sustain a push.
Sorry since it was discussing about aoe I did not include dots (most are single target)
Agree with your assessment although I'm not sure if there are more 2h tanks in destro (also a smart player should equip a shield in certain occasions as you need to guard, hold the line, chain M4 and etc to push).
Plenty of times I saw Order being week but either ppl were already afking at first push (like 20 ppl try pushing, with tanks hiding in the backlines) or us just being unable to sustain the push long enough to reach the stairs..
More rdps would be the beginning of a solution. Other points would indeed help too (especially ranged healing)
The issue is the same with order, ppl like to play toons they find cool... between bw and sorc and between engy/magus, I would chose bw and engi every single time... while between SL/choppa or the fantastic 4 mix I would go for choppa, mara or mSH because they look cooler.
I guess many players follow the same reasoning considering the class population distribution.

Issue is that you cant just say to random players, sorry 15 choppas joined this fort please leave your spot for magus/sorc.. In city you can try organise a wb, creating an appropriate composition, and if you are unlucky you will join a pug, but in forts works first come (with contribution) first served.
Because of this it is relatively easier to fix the issue in cities compared to forts/keeps unless devs start assigning fort population slots (e.g. tot for tanks, healer, mdps and rdps, and you can access win a slot based on contribution). But this solution would create so many problems that is no solution at all...
Overall, fort works similar to joining solo for city queue. If you are lucky you get decent composition and you are against another pug, if you are unlucky you are 20 mdps against a guild premade.

Zadorck
Posts: 21

Re: Fort Win Rate Tracker

Post#34 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:18 pm

Jabba wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:30 pm
It's pretty obvious why order win forts though, their static aoe classes are better or just more numerous, and the change to sw only made this worse. Fort is possibly the lowest skillcap content I think i've seen in any pvp game ever.

You pick a spot and stand in it so you don't have to think about your positioning.
You don't think about where you're placing your attacks as the attackers all get stuck in one spot.
You barely even think about what skills you use as they don't really matter or you can just spam the same one over and over.

Order just have classes (and more people playing those classes) that output far more pressure in this type of situation.

Agreed.

I can notice a lot of professionals in this thread

It's obviously all about organization in both realm we all know it.
But we have also to admit that it's actually since the RSW buff that mostly all of those forts are lost by destro, strange, does'nt it ?

I'm not for one side over another, and i'm not denying that destro has more cc utility, i'm simply saying real facts.

Order got advantage about rdps aoe, destro on melee aoe (that's also why mostly cities are win on destro side, but that's another discussion), Forts is all about funnel and rdps spaming aoe, due to the rsw buff, the order rdps aoe meta (bw engi sw) is a lot stronger than it was already.
Not to mention that;
-Aoe Sorc does far less dmg than bw
(Aoe Magus is fine let's be honest)
-The only destro ranged class that does physical damage is rsh wich is not viable today and did not get buffed yet like sw.
Therefore, it makes dodge defense stat clearly useless and not worth to focus on for order.

Btw I've heard that Broahead Arrow actually stacks, also it does'nt works with Powerful Draw, but when it will, it's going to be even worse.

In my opinion, funnels are going to be way more balanced once Rsh get buffed like Rsw.

Avichai
Posts: 1

Re: Fort Win Rate Tracker

Post#35 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:22 pm

I play 100% order (RR82 RP 80 WH) and admit this problem is making the game boring. The game is more enjoyable with diversity of zones, fortresses, and cities. Presently it’s static lock in T4 because Destro can’t push city. It’s mostly due to self-selecting range Aoe classes on order, where Destro has more players roling melee. Solution: lower the defender ratio, this will reopen the fun part of the game. ✌️

lyncher12
Posts: 231

Re: Fort Win Rate Tracker

Post#36 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:18 pm

even late night forts magically enough people log in to cap fort with extras in queue and immediately afterwards theres like 20 on each side

Cheermazon
Posts: 11

Re: Fort Win Rate Tracker

Post#37 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:46 am

It baffles me that people constantly emphasize destro (usually) doing better in cities, as a means for what is likely a 90%+(guessing) loss rate in forts for the faction.
Either side is capable of a mDPS deathball to win a city, and either side can do it well. Of course your non-meta group/pug is going to get dominated by
even a semi-organized mDPS deathball.

I play on both sides, Order is mildly more organized then Destro on any given day, but the claims of supreme organizational skills are false. It's been
going on 2-3 months of Altdorf regularly being 5 stars and staying that way for days at a time, and IC has been lucky to hit 2 stars at times before another siege.
I don't see how people canr view that as indicative of some sort of game balance. Whether it be class balance, class populations, or environmental factors(keep doors?) there
is obviously a problem,outside of "L2P" when the win/loss record is so drastically different between factions.

User avatar
zij83
Posts: 38

Re: Fort Win Rate Tracker

Post#38 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:47 am

Avichai wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:22 pm
I play 100% order (RR82 RP 80 WH) and admit this problem is making the game boring. The game is more enjoyable with diversity of zones, fortresses, and cities. Presently it’s static lock in T4 because Destro can’t push city. It’s mostly due to self-selecting range Aoe classes on order, where Destro has more players roling melee. Solution: lower the defender ratio, this will reopen the fun part of the game. ✌️
You nailed it with this reply. Raising the defender ratio was the nail in the coffin for destro being able to have a chance in forts. They need to lower it back to what it was and see that helps.

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Asderas27
Posts: 23

Re: Fort Win Rate Tracker

Post#39 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:08 am

All the 300+ destro zerglings cant go in single fort anymore with changes in numbers even tho the changes were made to help destro out. Also doesnt help that so many tanks on destro play 2H and healers play dps they are of zero use in a fort also most magus and sorcs play ST so that doesnt help. Even in order pugs most tanks play SnB and healers play the role of healers. Some basic coordination with tank m4 and dps m2 is needed which we do in wb chat. Stop whining about classes and balance all the time.
Also with the strategy of destro to double fort at same time and put all the order organized wbs in one fort then the destro org. wbs leave that fort and go to the second fort and try take that one. This doesnt help any of your pugs at all.

User avatar
Naelar
Posts: 105

Re: Fort Win Rate Tracker

Post#40 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:04 am

farng84 wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:03 pm
Spoiler:
ChicagoJoe wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:19 pm
farng84 wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:00 pm
Issue is that you cant just say to random players, sorry 15 choppas joined this fort please leave your spot for magus/sorc.. In city you can try organise a wb, creating an appropriate composition,
And this is the difference between fort and city. You can pick and choose composition in the city. For forts, it's about who get the reservation and who actually shows up.

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