Recent Topics

Ads

Fort Tracker One Week In

Let's talk about... everything else

Moderators: Developer, Management, Web Developer

User avatar
Acidic
Posts: 1805
Contact:

Re: Fort Tracker One Week In

Post#41 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:32 pm

emiliorv wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:30 pm
empmoz wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:21 pm
Edit - For the past month or so, I log on, see severe population imbalance (300 order vs 100/150 destro) and quit the game to play something else. I've been steamrolled enough times to know when to quit, and this game is just not fun with such a large player disadvantage.
I got bored to see how destro got nerfed in all this year to "balance" a pug VS premade issue...finally stopped to log in.
Unfortunately you are not alone

Ads
VindicoAtrum
Posts: 57

Re: Fort Tracker One Week In

Post#42 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:14 pm

Acidic wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:32 pm
emiliorv wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:30 pm
empmoz wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:21 pm
Edit - For the past month or so, I log on, see severe population imbalance (300 order vs 100/150 destro) and quit the game to play something else. I've been steamrolled enough times to know when to quit, and this game is just not fun with such a large player disadvantage.
I got bored to see how destro got nerfed in all this year to "balance" a pug VS premade issue...finally stopped to log in.
Unfortunately you are not alone
Joining you for a while I think. Order rammed 6 zones through in a few hours today with anywhere from 50% to 100% more players all the way. Fun for them maybe, but not fun enough to take time from other games.

Rapzel
Posts: 124

Re: Fort Tracker One Week In

Post#43 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:56 pm

Gurf wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:26 pm
Rapzel wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:51 pm
ChicagoJoe wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:05 pm


I agree that in theory lower numbers would favor the attackers but I think it’s the opposite based on other factors and the results are probably similar with recent fortress population reductions, not
better.

One major reason for this is that the recent composition priority and rr changes for invites and queuing for the initial fort defense help assure that it will be packed with more balanced higher rr defenders. It is easier for a small organized group to make a difference.

With an organized balanced defense, lower defenders with same ratio will benefit defense until you get too small of totals overall to block the entrances.

The AOE pressure you are referring to is significant yet is still limited by stacking rules.

Also a lot of the stackable DOTs can be cleansed however from what I’ve seen and heard destro composition of healers may currently favor a city meta or dps solo/ganking and may not include as many taking group cleanse tactics.

Same with the ton of 2H tanks. Good for some in destro city meta but really bad for fortress pushes.

I still think a career change option in fortress attackers camp would benefit attackers more than defenders or any of the other changes or fortress population reductions.
In theory? Order has over 91% winrate, and you think less players in fort in theory is a boon to the attacker?

When destro double push which apparently is skewering the stats to Order favor somehow (Order prider logic) there's usually 3-5 premade destro wbs out and about, running decent destro meta setups, I haven't seen them run any 2h tanks.
City meta in ORvR? People usually relog and/or respec before city.
Destro is currently losing city as their melee got quite heavy nerfs, while Order still sits on the best tank, melee dps, ranged dps, and arguably best healer, for WBs (weird how the same careers are among the best in small scale as well, weird how "balance" sometimes work out).
Destro's strong careers atm are roamers/solo careers (WE/Shaman/rSH) when you're in a ORvR lake.
Destro are bashing their heads against a wall, and have been for a long time when it comes to ORvR.
Then nerfing destro to make cities more "fair" (we had IC on a farm schedule, the "x-realmers"/city loggers, kept pushing campaign on Order for several months and still apparently are, I wonder why.) was the last nail in the coffin, so it's better to just wait for the reworks of careers and let the Order Zerg continue.

Is the whole game Order biased? No, because Order has some garbage careers (and in particular awful speccs) as well, but when they have at least 3/4 of the 4 arch types (healer is arguable whether RP or Zeal is the better one in 6vs6) in every aspect of PvP in the game there's an imbalance.

So I guess the next nerf is going to be targeted at PUG SC setups where Order can face roll their way to victory.

//Proud x-realmer that played Order for 3 years straight.
Except overall Destro has won more cities than lost over the last few weeks, most City out of EU Prime time Destro usually are back up to 70% win rate, last few in Prime it has Order winning by 1 or 2 instances.

When it comes to ORVR it isn't that complicated, fix up 2-2-2 groups with aoe dps and go and farm the pug warbands and hopefully fight some similar sized warbands on even terms, any decent Destro leader can organise that if they want to, it isn't going to be hindered by any class or realm imbalance seeing as its still easier for Destro to fill up a warband with melee dps and morale drops are still an effective tool against large numbers. Saw PnP out in the lakes yesterday on Destro and they seemed to have no problem killing many more than their numbers.
Yet they didn't manage to push a 5* Altdorf.
I've fought 4 wbs with 1 WB, and came out on top, stomping PUGs is not hard and requires no skill or meta wb, just communication and coordination.
So being able to take on more than 1 wb doesn't mean skill, it would be weird if a WB that has been playing for 4-5 years lost to complete PUGs.

If it's just needed for people to make good WBs and push and IF the game is equally balanced in ORvR how come the hated city loggers/x-realmers push on Order and then relog to Destro during city siege?
Look at the amount of cities (I mean I guess you have city stats from at least 3 months back as you are so sure of the win/loss ratio, and compare the amount of IC vs Altdorf), Altdorf is a rare 5* city occurrence and IC has been farmed for months now.
Why is this?

In IC, destro has a huge favor in the last stage if they're defending, their melee blob (because that's the only meta Destro has, as Destro ranged is pure garbage compared to Order ranged) can easily just overwhelm any WB that isn't Slayer stacking in stage 3. (Look at the stats and you'll see the defender has a better win rate over all compared to their ATTACKING win rate)
I guess you have the stats for stages won as well in cities?
Otherwise it would be like me counting all the forts that ended at stage 2 instead of 3 as YOU are looking at the win rate of 1 stage out of 3.

How often do you get prime time cities?

Get out of your bias bubble.

ChicagoJoe
Posts: 168

Re: Fort Tracker One Week In

Post#44 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:30 pm

Rapzel wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:51 pm
ChicagoJoe wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:05 pm
Naelar wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:05 am

My experience with forts going back to when it was 240 v 192 was that lower numbers tend to favor the attacker, for the reasons you stated.
I agree that in theory lower numbers would favor the attackers but I think it’s the opposite based on other factors and the results are probably similar with recent fortress population reductions, not
better.

I still think a career change option in fortress attackers camp would benefit attackers more than defenders or any of the other changes or fortress population reductions.
In theory? Order has over 91% winrate, and you think less players in fort in theory is a boon to the attacker?

City meta in ORvR? People usually relog and/or respec before city.

//Proud x-realmer that played Order for 3 years straight.
Man you didn't read what I said. If you reread it you may realize that I reasoned that lower pop in fort doesn't seem to favor the attackers, despite the developers intent. I wrote several paragraphs describing why it helps the defenders. And you aren't been honest about your destro comps... a major complaint was that pugs in destro fortresses were ruining the pushes. No one was disparaging your hard core players.

A lot of classes have been changed over the last couple years. Destro classes got a bunch of order skills. SOME of those skills modified because of some unintended added benefits from those skills. I don't know if you unexpectedly get an OP skill and it gets rolled back that you can call it a nerf. For example, Runefang, a core skill around for years for KOTBS, got a major nerf. Destro, which never had Runefang, got a version. No complaints from destro here. Choppa pull was overperforming at implementation and they realized aspects of it were broken. They fixed it after months. Apples and oranges.

Rapzel
Posts: 124

Re: Fort Tracker One Week In

Post#45 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:31 pm

ChicagoJoe wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:30 pm
Rapzel wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:51 pm
ChicagoJoe wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:05 pm


I agree that in theory lower numbers would favor the attackers but I think it’s the opposite based on other factors and the results are probably similar with recent fortress population reductions, not
better.

I still think a career change option in fortress attackers camp would benefit attackers more than defenders or any of the other changes or fortress population reductions.
In theory? Order has over 91% winrate, and you think less players in fort in theory is a boon to the attacker?

City meta in ORvR? People usually relog and/or respec before city.

//Proud x-realmer that played Order for 3 years straight.
Man you didn't read what I said. If you reread it you may realize that I reasoned that lower pop in fort doesn't seem to favor the attackers, despite the developers intent. I wrote several paragraphs describing why it helps the defenders. And you aren't been honest about your destro comps... a major complaint was that pugs in destro fortresses were ruining the pushes. No one was disparaging your hard core players.

A lot of classes have been changed over the last couple years. Destro classes got a bunch of order skills. SOME of those skills modified because of some unintended added benefits from those skills. I don't know if you unexpectedly get an OP skill and it gets rolled back that you can call it a nerf. For example, Runefang, a core skill around for years for KOTBS, got a major nerf. Destro, which never had Runefang, got a version. No complaints from destro here. Choppa pull was overperforming at implementation and they realized aspects of it were broken. They fixed it after months. Apples and oranges.
They removed crippling strikes from Chosen, there's no one that asked for Daemon claw on Chosen, no one in their right mind runs Daemon Claw.
And you can search the forum, there's MORE than ENOUGH complain threads about how chosen got gutted when CS was removed for Garbage Claw.

Runefang was a 1vs1 super tool which allowed for KotBS to get stupid amounts of stats with Emperor's Ward, Runefang and then you added OYG! and it was pretty much a riposte built tank with better stats.
Runefang isn't used in WBs or in 6vs6 and it never was, because you loose better tactics, saying it was "core" outside of the fact it was a free tactic every kotbs had access too is just lying, it was a 1vs1 godtier tool, CS was a VERY potent 6vs6, WB and solo tactic.

I read what you wrote lower pop in fort does favor attacker, why on earth do you think Order has 91% win rate in attacking forts?

what apples and oranges? you bring up chosen and kotbs changes which didn't do anything for kotbs in group/wb play and straight up nerfed chosen, and then compare it with how GTDC was nerfed to the ground.
Am I supposed to whine about the removal of DW/MS and then bring up how Coordinated strike was overperforming when Guardian tree gave str bonus to pet from wounds, because you make no sense in these comparisons.
Side note;
this didn't kill WL, like it did with Choppa, the recent nerfs of WL killed it and WL at least has a WB spec atm, choppa has 0 good specs anymore, it's just fluff that is there, you might as well bring another Mara or mSH because the only thing you get is chopp fasta and you have waaaaagh and they're not as likely to misplay with pull or aoe punt and fall over in 2 secs because they forgot to drop rage.

User avatar
CountTalabecland
Posts: 707

Re: Fort Tracker One Week In

Post#46 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:02 pm

The devs implemented Medal drops in bags and medal drop fragments in lakes which has upticked the reward for playing ORvR and yet destro population lags. Something I was/am very much in favor of. However, You get more from zerging now than ever. I did not foresee it getting this bad but here we are.

Additionally it is more rewarding than ever to cap multiple zones, rather than spending a lot of time building contribution in one zone. However, medals for defending pre-fort were removed. So once again the zerg is the way to increase loot rolls over time by capping more zones, getting to more forts, and cities.

Whatever the balance issues, Order was slightly more populated when theses new rewards were implemented and I think this has exaggerated the normal pop fluctuation. There is no reason to play underdogs now. One could argue AAO but the renown ticks from fort and city are so big (regardless of winners) that I don't see most ppl intentionally playing underdog just for that. Renown is easier to get than gear.

The profitability of zerging is the cause of this. Fort Lord's room doors are the one exception where numbers don't guarantee wins but forts are really just a sideshow to the overall issue of Order capping 6 zones in a row and farming forts and IC.
Brynnoth Goldenbeard (40/74) (IB) -- Rundin Fireheart (40/50) (RP) -- Ungrinn (40/35) (Engi)-- Bramm Bloodaxe (40/81) (Slayer) and a few Empire characters here or there, maybe even an elf.

User avatar
Mordecaieth
Posts: 100
Contact:

Re: Fort Tracker One Week In

Post#47 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:43 pm

Sarnai wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:21 am
Let's not forget Destro's weird obsession with pushing simultaneous forts and throwing one in an attempt to pull defenders but failing both because they're trying to be too fancy. Attacker/defender population data is needed or any kind of conclusions drawn from this is pure conjecture.

I know that Order winning a thrown fort is not necessarily a "win", in anyone's mind. However, what should be the main topic here is why they are throwing it in the first place.

As a side note- Wouldn't that have made it conjecture to make opinions from "Why is Order how it is"? along with the "City Win Rates", post a few months back? Although the population is not as big of a factor in city, as it is in forts- You should not say that this data is pure conjecture.

PS Why you no solo roam anymore :oops:

ChicagoJoe
Posts: 168

Re: Fort Tracker One Week In

Post#48 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:50 pm

Rapzel wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:31 pm
ChicagoJoe wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:30 pm
Rapzel wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:51 pm


In theory? Order has over 91% winrate, and you think less players in fort in theory is a boon to the attacker?

City meta in ORvR? People usually relog and/or respec before city.

//Proud x-realmer that played Order for 3 years straight.
Man you didn't read what I said. If you reread it you may realize that I reasoned that lower pop in fort doesn't seem to favor the attackers, despite the developers intent. I wrote several paragraphs describing why it helps the defenders. And you aren't been honest about your destro comps... a major complaint was that pugs in destro fortresses were ruining the pushes. No one was disparaging your hard core players.
I read what you wrote lower pop in fort does favor attacker, why on earth do you think Order has 91% win rate in attacking forts?
I stopped reading when you misunderstood what I wrote a second time.

I wrote "I agree that in theory lower numbers would favor the attackers but I think it’s the opposite" and wrote why it hasn't helped destro.

Could be a language thing. When someone says "In theory X but in practice really Y", they aren't saying X, they are saying Y. They also aren't saying Z. Sorry to confuse you so much. From what has been deduced to this point, the lower fort pop wasn't to help order, it was to help destro. Order didn't need help with current comps in forts.

Ads
Sarnai
Posts: 152

Re: Fort Tracker One Week In

Post#49 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:25 pm

Mordecaieth wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:43 pm
Sarnai wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:21 am
Let's not forget Destro's weird obsession with pushing simultaneous forts and throwing one in an attempt to pull defenders but failing both because they're trying to be too fancy. Attacker/defender population data is needed or any kind of conclusions drawn from this is pure conjecture.

I know that Order winning a thrown fort is not necessarily a "win", in anyone's mind. However, what should be the main topic here is why they are throwing it in the first place.

As a side note- Wouldn't that have made it conjecture to make opinions from "Why is Order how it is"? along with the "City Win Rates", post a few months back? Although the population is not as big of a factor in city, as it is in forts- You should not say that this data is pure conjecture.

PS Why you no solo roam anymore :oops:
The Order city crying from a while back was full of conjecture too, absolutely. The big difference to me is that there are considerably more variables useful in drawing worthwhile conclusions when it comes to forts than cities. Cities basically have one : composition, which was the biggest (and correct) counterpoint to the city threads. Apart from weird bug-outs, the team pops are balanced. Everyone is 40+ with access to their class's full range of abilities. The mechanics for the instances are mirrored.

Forts have much more. Population difference is the biggest, most obvious. Player levels (which brings bolster into consideration.) Individual fort mechanics. I'm glad OP is starting to add Stage 3 pops, as I think that's a very important data point to have. Personally I think there's more to consider, but this kind of observation thread can eventually lead to good change as long as the data's there.

PS. I still do! It's just usually during the day when I have time. At night usually some of my regular group is on and I feel bad blowing them off....for now ;)
WH looking for gunbad left

Rapzel
Posts: 124

Re: Fort Tracker One Week In

Post#50 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:02 pm

ChicagoJoe wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:50 pm
Rapzel wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:31 pm
ChicagoJoe wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:30 pm


Man you didn't read what I said. If you reread it you may realize that I reasoned that lower pop in fort doesn't seem to favor the attackers, despite the developers intent. I wrote several paragraphs describing why it helps the defenders. And you aren't been honest about your destro comps... a major complaint was that pugs in destro fortresses were ruining the pushes. No one was disparaging your hard core players.
I read what you wrote lower pop in fort does favor attacker, why on earth do you think Order has 91% win rate in attacking forts?
I stopped reading when you misunderstood what I wrote a second time.

I wrote "I agree that in theory lower numbers would favor the attackers but I think it’s the opposite" and wrote why it hasn't helped destro.

Could be a language thing. When someone says "In theory X but in practice really Y", they aren't saying X, they are saying Y. They also aren't saying Z. Sorry to confuse you so much. From what has been deduced to this point, the lower fort pop wasn't to help order, it was to help destro. Order didn't need help with current comps in forts.
It has helped destro, it has increased win rate in forts by a quite a lot, it's not in "theory", it's a fact, it is just that atrociously bad.
The more they keep lowering the amount of players in forts the higher the attackers win % is going to be, no matter the faction.

You keep asking yourself the wrong question, the question is "why is there such a large discrepancy between the factions?"

The problem is not the fort system (even though I personally think all the end game "ORvR" is poorly designed, specially forts), the game is very unbalanced at the moment when it comes to faction vs. faction, with Order having 3 of the best archtypes while the 4th archtype is quite balanced.
As long as they won't change certain careers, to make them as viable (be it nerfs or buffs) as their mirror in "competitive" (guild/alliance vs. guild/alliance wbs) this is how it will be and the stats won't change that much.

I've stated it before, Destro was and has always been melee heavy, Order has always been ranged heavy, destro melee ball was nerfed and sure that might have been needed to make Order and Destro melee just as viable, but there has been 0 transparency IF there's going to be any changes to destro range to make up and try and balance range vs. range, where Order range is just so much stronger than Destro range, at least in WB.

Destro overall lacks ranged AoE (destro has magi that does at least some AoE damage but it requires the setup and buffs of the pet in general), while Order has an abundance of Engi/BW and now Skirmish SW.
And both you and me understand that the SW rework was needed and not loved by all, I play SW myself, I understand that ranged SW struggled and I know that SW was seen as a useless career in WBs along with WH (given you didn't play a ST group or DG which was used before the DG nerf), but where is the change to rSH?
Or are destro supposed to only have melee specs and then as the cherry on top have the weaker melee careers? That's what we're moving towards, Mara damage was interpolated to line up with AoE WL, choppa burst was nerfed even though they ALREADY did less sustain damage compared to Slayer.
Morale burst drop which was an issue for small scale to start with was nerfed first after it was "abused" in city by destro even though people complained about it before (DG and OYK nerf was because of small scale/6vs6 if I understand it correctly), devs keep telling us they balance for 24vs24, yet it looks like they're trying to even out the city win ratio while ORvR and forts are a total mess.

It's okay for one side to stack a few select careers, but when the other faction does it the nerf hammer gets pulled, the game has gone from having minor balance issues to MAJOR balance issues in less than a year and the nerfs are completely arbitrary and lacks any reasoning and transparency behind them, they're just done and it has become worse since city was implemented.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: horuson, Jabba, JarlBerzirk, XsorrowerX, zak68 and 65 guests