fair comment i cannot disagree as someone who played both sides... and was winning on order pre nerfs which put the training wheels in game to help out people vs morale bombing which has been nerfed into the ground, something order was generally lacklasture at in cities due to poor compositions and healer stacking together and non aggressive impactful plays.Onigokko0101 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:09 amI mean Order breaks when unseccessful too, its not an Order vs Destro thing, its just Order pugs have an easier time making Destro pugs break in Forts.Wam wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:44 amThe alliance i am part of, and FMJ was the main driving force on destro... fmj was maybe 35 at peak... we started with 12 (some pugs) eventually 23-24 ... Ofc there was other pugs around who eventually came out the wood work when we get upper hand and momentumRekoom wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:08 am
Maybe you can share your knowledge? How many organized groups did you have? What morales were you running? Did you push early to take advantage of Destro superior morale pumps or did you wait? What are the win conditions for Destro in forts? Not baiting or anything, genuinely interested. I think there is a lot of meta talk regarding cities but very little on how to actually take forts.
Although it is hard/impossible to prove I'd say it's a fair assumption to say there are as many Order pugs as there are Destro. The average Order pugs is not more organized than Destro is and there are l2p issues on both sides (I pug on both sides) yet the results are vastly different. Over the course of my ~4 months playing more seriously here I've seen entire guilds stopping to play seriously and are just now 6-man roaming in the lakes in between 1* ICs. None of the usual names can be heard in T4 chat anymore, there is no leadership. Perhaps they got tired of banging their heads against the same wall?
It probably is just a phase the server is going through and things will change one way or another but it does suck to play Destro in those conditions. I personally am ok just roaming around with friends and leveling alts to learn different roles & classes, just wish there were more Order out in the lakes rather than sitting on forts farming defense ticks when they have 1.5x our numbers.
Gearing wise however Destro is currently hard-mode.
order had FOG/RT and CNTK (drunk alts) and they had about 25-30 pug mix each
order collapse after fort and reboot and fog disband...
So it was premadeish vs semi pug+
I dont think any beavers or nge and we aint fighting ourselves...
Morale pumps dont matter that much in fort due to having to wait on BG (slowbie) to get m4 also so everything is in sync or wasted... If order had a bomb warband in fort maybe it would be different, maybe we would have to work a little harder and out rez them because 1 wb + fmj (1.5 wb) vs 1 wb ... the more organised wbs should win If pug's standby and do not support (which happens alot, too slow to react to whats going on) as soon as you bust a hole in the defence its pretty much RIP.
Order just chip away at enemy (because of heavy rdps stack) and that is main difference, they soften them up... but if you are a proper group the softening up has no effect so is meaningless unless you are a pug with no offence very bad healers and tanks, if you are a weak group it can wipe you, so of course you get demoralised and think you have no chance of winning because your group is not built or played propery... i.e no 2-2-2 with max resistances from buffs (be it chosen aura, or shaman/zealot buff) too many people run wasted tactics and slot junk talismans, I saw a chosen with sov and weapon skill talismans for example (class does spirit dmg, doesnt need armour pen so WS is wasted compared to more wounds toughness armour to be more tanky... same as some tanks slotting STR and neglecting defense, you are tank first and foremost and dps tanks are meme and melt like no tomorrow)
If you get chipped away at enough you get broken, order have successfully broken destro will by numerous defenses over and over again making it as hard for destro... hence destros defeatist attitude throughout this thread which is a joke. So when the going gets tough destro fragment and break. go to self pity excuses and blame class/realm balance instead of composition issues and L2P. Destro use to have a saying like butchers pass never falls, but with cities and destro gaining more from losing forts and winning cities they throw alot... this throwing mentality on defensive forts has come back to bite them on offensive forts because they see order bunker in... and think they cannot do the same and they has a faction only have themselves to blame. It also helps that some of order's guilds are more pug friendly and very active, destro have a over reliance on FMJ to get things done.
People probably bringing lowbie renown characters that need invader instead of their highest geared and experienced can also make significant difference if you really want a city.
Also unguarded MDPS do not contribute alot in forts, that is slight issue if they do not have support (dedicated tanks and healers) then they cannot push and are just rain of fire cannon fodder for order bw... so if not enough people are making balanced groups this effects destro more than order, so if you play a mdps on destro without grouping then can see why frustrated.
Pushed for 6 hours through 2 server resets... we had aao and was losing praag when we started and got chased by these bigger groups across rivers.
If you use your morales properly you have 25-30 seconds to make a impact and clear out a area, then help crumble other areas to ease pressure for your allies to break in... if you do not make a impact or die within 20 seconds then you got some issues that need to be worked on lol. Sarnai give good advice also.
I do think a big reason for Destro losses is simply organization and player skill, 100%. The issue I have is mostly that Destro has gotten nerfed more then once due to things that were counterable but required being organized, so where do we draw the line on nerfs? If unorganized Destro has a 90% loss rate defending forts, how is that different then unorganized Order losing cities?
Order was told to get "git gud" at cities, morale bomb nerfed negatively impacted destro more. Minor buffs to some order classes make more viable like IB, some minor nerfs to destro... things sway back and forth in cities, still depends on composition individual collective and leader skill level / assist. Things are fairly balanced but order did get some help intentional or not.
Destro now told to "git gud" at forts. Today proved it can be done, 2 forts success back to back. If things was broken would be 0 success for Destro. I think organisational issue and overstacking unsupported mdps. If your enemy has strong wb's defending you need stronger wb's attacking... if pugs have broken setups with people not knowing basics and their role puts too much pressure on your premade warband to hard carry with little support, and if defenders know they are the only/main threat it is alot easier for defenders to counter / neutralise.