Fort Tracker One Week In

[emiliorv]

Spoiler:

I read what you wrote lower pop in fort does favor attacker, why on earth do you think Order has 91% win rate in attacking forts?

I stopped reading when you misunderstood what I wrote a second time.

I wrote "I agree that in theory lower numbers would favor the attackers but I think it’s the opposite" and wrote why it hasn't helped destro.

Could be a language thing. When someone says "In theory X but in practice really Y", they aren't saying X, they are saying Y. They also aren't saying Z. Sorry to confuse you so much. From what has been deduced to this point, the lower fort pop wasn't to help order, it was to help destro. Order didn't need help with current comps in forts.

It has helped destro, it has increased win rate in forts by a quite a lot, it's not in "theory", it's a fact, it is just that atrociously bad.
The more they keep lowering the amount of players in forts the higher the attackers win % is going to be, no matter the faction.

You keep asking yourself the wrong question, the question is "why is there such a large discrepancy between the factions?"

The problem is not the fort system (even though I personally think all the end game "ORvR" is poorly designed, specially forts), the game is very unbalanced at the moment when it comes to faction vs. faction, with Order having 3 of the best archtypes while the 4th archtype is quite balanced.
As long as they won't change certain careers, to make them as viable (be it nerfs or buffs) as their mirror in "competitive" (guild/alliance vs. guild/alliance wbs) this is how it will be and the stats won't change that much.

I've stated it before, Destro was and has always been melee heavy, Order has always been ranged heavy, destro melee ball was nerfed and sure that might have been needed to make Order and Destro melee just as viable, but there has been 0 transparency IF there's going to be any changes to destro range to make up and try and balance range vs. range, where Order range is just so much stronger than Destro range, at least in WB.

Destro overall lacks ranged AoE (destro has magi that does at least some AoE damage but it requires the setup and buffs of the pet in general), while Order has an abundance of Engi/BW and now Skirmish SW.
And both you and me understand that the SW rework was needed and not loved by all, I play SW myself, I understand that ranged SW struggled and I know that SW was seen as a useless career in WBs along with WH (given you didn't play a ST group or DG which was used before the DG nerf), but where is the change to rSH?
Or are destro supposed to only have melee specs and then as the cherry on top have the weaker melee careers? That's what we're moving towards, Mara damage was interpolated to line up with AoE WL, choppa burst was nerfed even though they ALREADY did less sustain damage compared to Slayer.
Morale burst drop which was an issue for small scale to start with was nerfed first after it was "abused" in city by destro even though people complained about it before (DG and OYK nerf was because of small scale/6vs6 if I understand it correctly), devs keep telling us they balance for 24vs24, yet it looks like they're trying to even out the city win ratio while ORvR and forts are a total mess.

It's okay for one side to stack a few select careers, but when the other faction does it the nerf hammer gets pulled,

Plz someone gives this man a beer

[philaltmann21]

I have been on this server for a few months only now, I play mostly destro and dabble in some order classes but it definitely feels like all these destro nerfs we have had along with order buffs along with xrealmers make this game very undesirable to play in my opinion, I used to go to forts but now I feel its just a waste of my time, I know I need invaders but I honestly dont care at this point, waste of my time, would rather play something else. Seems like one of the only options to have fun in ORVR in destro is to play some bolstered twinked shaman/WE. Scenario grind gets old pretty fast and getting one shot by SW/WL constantly while trying to gear up or even get to forts is not how I want to be spending my time, my play time the past few weeks have been drastically reduced which is a shame because I really thought I would enjoy endgame RoR. Long story short if this trend keeps up I wont be playing this game much longer, had some fun times but its gone very downhill.

Thank you devs for all the work you put into the game, pleasing the community/balancing can be a struggle.

[Gurf]

What changes do you actually want to improve Destro then which you think will make the difference without completely borking class balance? SH has a good melee aoe already so it's not going to get good ranged aoe also (along with every utility available), just like SW isn't going to get a good melee aoe spec as it already has an aoe spec at ranged. While Magus does better damage than Engi already due to not having to stack multiple stats so it doesn't need to get aoe buff. BW does better aoe than Sorc but worse single target, you want to nerf it's single target as a trade? It's not like Sorc aoe is even bad. Choppa already has better burst damage and group synergy/utility than Slayer, you want to give some of that up to increase its aoe? . Mara is already superior to WL in almost every way in aoe spec. You can't have everything.

It's obvious that there are other player factors going on which go way beyond class balance if the Devs have made forts easier,(obviously to make life easier for Destro) , and their win rate further decreases. I very much doubt class buffs for Destro would even make much difference at the moment.

[Rekoom]

What changes do you actually want to improve Destro then which you think will make the difference without completely borking class balance? SH has a good melee aoe already so it's not going to get good ranged aoe also (along with every utility available), just like SW isn't going to get a good melee aoe spec as it already has an aoe spec at ranged. While Magus does better damage than Engi already due to not having to stack multiple stats so it doesn't need to get aoe buff. BW does better aoe than Sorc but worse single target, you want to nerf it's single target as a trade? It's not like Sorc aoe is even bad. Choppa already has better burst damage and group synergy/utility than Slayer, you want to give some of that up to increase its aoe? . Mara is already superior to WL in almost every way in aoe spec. You can't have everything.

It's obvious that there are other player factors going on which go way beyond class balance if the Devs have made forts easier,(obviously to make life easier for Destro) , and their win rate further decreases. I very much doubt class buffs for Destro would even make much difference at the moment.

You should play forts on Destro for a bit and make your own opinion.

I main Destro and leveled a couple of characters on Order - it is night and day in forts.

Been saying it in a couple of threads and I'm not sure if it is the sole reason but WP+KotBS combination just returns more healing output to keep groups up under intense pressure. Combine that with undefendable meat grinder from the midgets at the door and the fact more BW play aoe spec because it is their strong spec (while Sorc is better in ST - which does nothing to help forts) and the BHA spam (an extra dot that Destro doesn't have) and you have a bit of a perfect storm.

When I feel motivated again to do a fort on my tank I come in the right spec and the right gear, not 2 handed. It is the line of dots from Engies, SW and BW that are killing me as those and morales are damage I cannot prevent. DoKs can't cleanse them all as they do need to heal at some point while WP has to deal with one less dot (and BHA is a LOT of damage) and pumps out better heals already. The difference is subtle but it does tip the scale imo.

Destro might have some other benefits as a faction such as Windblock (good luck applying that in forts) and CD reducers (doesn't help with healing output) but they don't do much in forts and are imo more situational than 24/7 better healing output and 24/7 undefendable damage from the highest sustained dps class in the game. You can't just stack all the best archetypes on one faction and expect it to be balanced.

Results? Destro plays for the fights in oRvR trying to find some fun as a 6 or 12 man and ignores forts (at least that what our group does). Order unfortunately just blobs super tight these days anyway so I'm spending less and less time on my main and leveling Alts in SCs or *gasp* playing Order.

[Hardkoar]

What changes do you actually want to improve Destro then which you think will make the difference without completely borking class balance? SH has a good melee aoe already so it's not going to get good ranged aoe also (along with every utility available), just like SW isn't going to get a good melee aoe spec as it already has an aoe spec at ranged. While Magus does better damage than Engi already due to not having to stack multiple stats so it doesn't need to get aoe buff. BW does better aoe than Sorc but worse single target, you want to nerf it's single target as a trade? It's not like Sorc aoe is even bad. Choppa already has better burst damage and group synergy/utility than Slayer, you want to give some of that up to increase its aoe? . Mara is already superior to WL in almost every way in aoe spec. You can't have everything.

It's obvious that there are other player factors going on which go way beyond class balance if the Devs have made forts easier,(obviously to make life easier for Destro) , and their win rate further decreases. I very much doubt class buffs for Destro would even make much difference at the moment.

Apparently Destro has everything better on their classes, they must all just be bad players for constantly getting stomped. Funny though, how the same players seem to have no problem when they play Order.

[sgtnanners]

It's not hard to realize why the population of the forts is becoming more one-sided. Why would destro keep showing up to "guarunteed" losses. As I type this destro are losing fort that they cant even fill while order has full fort + 40 in queue. It will just get worse and worse. Also loving the comments that boil down to "lol l2p, destro classes are actually more op" or "yeah but destro win cities so its ok".

[Cheermazon]

What changes do you actually want to improve Destro then which you think will make the difference without completely borking class balance? SH has a good melee aoe already so it's not going to get good ranged aoe also (along with every utility available), just like SW isn't going to get a good melee aoe spec as it already has an aoe spec at ranged. While Magus does better damage than Engi already due to not having to stack multiple stats so it doesn't need to get aoe buff. BW does better aoe than Sorc but worse single target, you want to nerf it's single target as a trade? It's not like Sorc aoe is even bad. Choppa already has better burst damage and group synergy/utility than Slayer, you want to give some of that up to increase its aoe? . Mara is already superior to WL in almost every way in aoe spec. You can't have everything.

It's obvious that there are other player factors going on which go way beyond class balance if the Devs have made forts easier,(obviously to make life easier for Destro) , and their win rate further decreases. I very much doubt class buffs for Destro would even make much difference at the moment.

You should play forts on Destro for a bit and make your own opinion.

I main Destro and leveled a couple of characters on Order - it is night and day in forts.

Been saying it in a couple of threads and I'm not sure if it is the sole reason but WP+KotBS combination just returns more healing output to keep groups up under intense pressure. Combine that with undefendable meat grinder from the midgets at the door and the fact more BW play aoe spec because it is their strong spec (while Sorc is better in ST - which does nothing to help forts) and the BHA spam (an extra dot that Destro doesn't have) and you have a bit of a perfect storm.

When I feel motivated again to do a fort on my tank I come in the right spec and the right gear, not 2 handed. It is the line of dots from Engies, SW and BW that are killing me as those and morales are damage I cannot prevent. DoKs can't cleanse them all as they do need to heal at some point while WP has to deal with one less dot (and BHA is a LOT of damage) and pumps out better heals already. The difference is subtle but it does tip the scale imo.

Destro might have some other benefits as a faction such as Windblock (good luck applying that in forts) and CD reducers (doesn't help with healing output) but they don't do much in forts and are imo more situational than 24/7 better healing output and 24/7 undefendable damage from the highest sustained dps class in the game. You can't just stack all the best archetypes on one faction and expect it to be balanced.

Results? Destro plays for the fights in oRvR trying to find some fun as a 6 or 12 man and ignores forts (at least that what our group does). Order unfortunately just blobs super tight these days anyway so I'm spending less and less time on my main and leveling Alts in SCs or *gasp* playing Order.

I'm honestly curious the number of people who actively play each faction in this thread, versus those speaking from a one-sided perspective.
I main a dok in SOV, and have ventured to order with a RP/AM each in conqueor. My experience is obviously more on the DoK, but I've participated
in my fair share of forts on order as well. The difference between the two sides on a healer is black and white, and part of the reason I don't play Order often
is because its so damn boring to heal.

While Destro definitley has class composition problems, and its evident in forts. Claiming compositional superiority and stating to "just run 2/2/2" is foolish, as PUG warbands
are just as common on Order as they are on Destro. I will acknowledge, Order has guilds with much larger populations opposed to destro where players are more scattered may
be part of the population problem as well. However, those guilds aren't exactly optimal, so the 2/2/2 argument and "git gud" argument, falls flat.

For whatever reason, NA Order often has double the numbers of destro, and is largely the population pushing for the 1* ICs on a daily basis. At this time there is no downside for zerging,
and the rewards for zone-flipping vastly outweight what AAO provides, plus AAO doesn't provide medals/chests. This is why destro groups are often splintered, as the rewards are found
in ganking rather then objectives when youre outnumbered 3-1 sometimes(at this time CW is 90D-168O). These same numbers will push to fort, take more easy medals/bag rolls and then move to the next zone. Until AAO is buffed, or zone-flipping rewards altered somehow this trend will continue as it has for the past several months; and has been a detriment to the games population, in particular on the destro side.

I think what players who only play one side need to recognize, is that there are two factions in this game. Destro in its current state, cannot reliably push or defend forts as easily as Order can. Regardless of it being class composition, class balance or perceived organizational skills; at some point you need to take a step back and acknowledge that one faction with an offensive win >90% is indicative of something.

[Rapzel]

What changes do you actually want to improve Destro then which you think will make the difference without completely borking class balance? SH has a good melee aoe already so it's not going to get good ranged aoe also (along with every utility available), just like SW isn't going to get a good melee aoe spec as it already has an aoe spec at ranged. While Magus does better damage than Engi already due to not having to stack multiple stats so it doesn't need to get aoe buff. BW does better aoe than Sorc but worse single target, you want to nerf it's single target as a trade? It's not like Sorc aoe is even bad. Choppa already has better burst damage and group synergy/utility than Slayer, you want to give some of that up to increase its aoe? . Mara is already superior to WL in almost every way in aoe spec. You can't have everything.

It's obvious that there are other player factors going on which go way beyond class balance if the Devs have made forts easier,(obviously to make life easier for Destro) , and their win rate further decreases. I very much doubt class buffs for Destro would even make much difference at the moment.

Class balance is already broken.

Choppa better burst than Slayer? What planet do you live on? GTDC hits for less than Lotsa Choppin' it's just larger AoE, more targets and a speed buff, but you lose dps (1,5 sec gcd vs 2 sec tick) and AP.
On choppa you can get off Yer All Bleeding Now and Bring It On that's probably the highest burst you can get on that career, while on slayer you add ID, who do you think has the biggest drop with m2?
Sorc AoE not even bad? Do you remember the last time you saw a full sorc bomb WB?
Last time I saw that was back in 2015, when t2 was the highest open tier, and BW bomb WB was ran in city siege until they lost against morale dump, self-pump and funnel power easily out weighs the weird morale Engi and Sorc has along with the init debuff sorc has access to. I don't have anything against removing the stupid PUG one shot on Sorc for it to be good in WB.

No engi doesn't do as much damage as a magus, dps in aoe paths are not that far from each other since all grenadier abilities are corp damage and you get auto attacks. The difference here is that engi has some great utility instead, cannon smash and keg e.g. and tbh, when you have Slayer and BW, do you bring one engi for the nice utility it has or it's damage? Quite sure it's the utility, while the Magus is brought for damage.

The thing that you don't seem to understand is that destro melee has been tuned down to line up with order melee (obviously not slayer but w/e) so they're supposed to be equals, but when you balance melee you need to balance the ranged careers as well so that the melee focused faction doesn't fall behind, and there's been no nerf on Order ranged, they've not even been touched because it's fine to have melee be balanced while Order ranged runs over Destro ranged (you literally complained about destro melee for months, so I guess you will fight for nerfs of Order ranged so that the factions are equals when it comes to range as well? Or are you just very biased?)

[Jabba]

Destro had a better morale game, that got nerfed hard. Order had better raw damage and healing with free wounds buff to compensate. This was further buffed by giving sw a mindless aoe spam build which shines in a fort/funnel setting which is apparently 90% of the 'pvp' for people in this game.

[lyncher12]

We don't need to buff Destro's mindless aoe capability to be on par with Order just to have more successful fort defenses. We need to nerf keep defense in general, if possible.