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RSH Underperforming

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Wuhh
Legacy RR80
Posts: 168

Re: RSH Underperforming

Post#41 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:22 pm

I've clocked just over 8days playtime on my rsh now, and for me it is not underperforming, given all the tools we have for escape and distancing from melee opponents.
I play solo most of the time, sometimes in a small group, and pug wb when I have to. and only feel like im not able to put in enough when in a wb and have to follow their flow. as people have said choosing your fights, and spatial awareness is of prime importance.
The only thing I would really like is a self cleanse, but that would be OP really. And the subjugator cloak just doesn't work given the 30min cd.
I know in another Rsh thread I was asking about changes and when they might happen, but now having played a fair amount (14k orvr kills in 8days) I am fairly happy with how it works, the tactics we have, the abilities, and the trees.
#saynotorshchanges

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Zadorck
Posts: 34

Re: RSH Underperforming

Post#42 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:55 pm

PlagueMonk wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:00 pm
Zadorck wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:16 pm
It has been a while now since the SW got buffed, and i believe that many players noticed it.

I knows that we've been told that Rsh buff/rework will comes after, i have also no doubt that the dev team is working on it and doing their best
Even thought we knows that: Melee sh is pretty decent, pets got buffed, the Rsh dmg difference is clearly huge compared to the Rsw atm, and surely that is why almost nobody is playing it.

Today i've been again surprised from the dmg output of a rr58 SW, with 2x devast 2x anni 2x conq / subj weaps, dealing 10797 dmg in 4 sec to my Rsh with 0% chance to be crit.
I've got many alts, but whenever i try to play my rsh i get fast dissapointed and bored to sadly stop playing it, mine is rr50+ with conq/beast, i realize it's not a lot, but i bet i don't do as much in this time frame.

I do not want to make any drama out of it, that's why i've hidden the player's name, but still got the original screenshot for those not believing me.

I just wanted to share the evidence, thougths ?

https://prnt.sc/v79lyc
As others have pointed out you have MANY more tools at your disposal than a SW so if you are simply trading arrow shots and not using them, of course you are going to lose. That's like allowing a WL and their pet to just beat you in the face without moving. SW are a DPS class and not much else (like a pet or decent armor) so if they aren't able to melt someone's face in a short period of time I would say there's a problem. I've seen SH just pew pew pew pew pew and drop someone (including myself) in a few secs.

I'm also not seeing quite the 10k damage you are claiming. After mitigation, they actually did < 6k to you in 4 secs. Not saying it's not a lot of damage but closer to have what we are seeing.

As for no chance of crit, you do know in WAR that doesn't really mean zero right? Others have abilities that RAISE their crit which offsets your anti-crit chance. This is just like having enough armor to drop damage supposedly to zero but yet you can still take damage.

Last thing, since classes are not balanced on a 1 v 1 basis, you should not be comparing yourself to the SW as far as damage. If we did I would be calling for a SH nerf since my WP has virtually zero tools to beat your class (which is extremely annoying btw) You both might use a bow but you have a pet which completely changes the dynamic of how damage is done.
Wow you looks very experienced.
Btw were not you the one who made a topic asking why you died instead of killing a 84 full sov bo on your lvl 24 WP? Just asking for a friend tho

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franzjaeger
Posts: 41

Re: RSH Underperforming

Post#43 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:42 pm

Jabba wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:59 am
franzjaeger wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:50 am
Jabba wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:34 am
Still don't understand why people are talking about rSH not being wanted in warbands as a reason for changing them. If you want to play in warbands on a sh, you don't play rSH.

If you want to play in warbands on zeal/shaman/dok/rp/wp/am....you don't play dps, you play heal.

If you want to play warbands on a tank, you don't play as a loldps spec, you play as snb or select 2h utility specs.

If you want to play in a warband on choppa/slayer, you don't play 2h spec, you play dual wield with the appropriate spec.

If you want to play as an engi/magus, you don't play as a single target/toughness roam spec. You spec appropiately.

WL you don't play with pet spec. You play loner.

Mara, you don't play a savagery/brutality build. You spec Monstro.

etc etc


All classes have specs that are not viable for warbands, if you want to play in proper warbands on these classes, maybe you don't get to play your preferred spec. For SH, this means you play mSH, rather than range.
Except mSH is the "off spec" for SH, rSH is the main spec and no matter how you spec your rSH (dps, utility, aoe (lol)) you're not really wanted. That is not the same as playing a dps-specced healer or tank or solo-specced engi/magus/WL/mara. SH is a range class first and foremost, if I wanted to play a melee class I would play mara or choppa. Re-speccing to mSH from rSH is not the same as switching around some points and tactics to get more AoE/utility, you completely change everything about how the class plays to the point where you might as well just have switched to a different char. It's just not the same thing.
Loner isn't the main spec for wl.
SnB isnt main spec for sm/BG who were clearly designed as 2h tanks.
Arguably, pure heal isnt main spec for am/shaman whose mechanic is meant to promote hybrid lifetaps.
Is monstro mara it's main spec?
What's your point?
The main reason Loner is required for WL in RvR is due to how badly pets perform when they're dead which is all the time in this AoE meta, that affects SH as well.
SnB is not an obscure spec for any tank and they all have the choice between 2H and SnB.
Hybrid lifetap am/shaman is still a healer and they can even perform well in ORvR if played right. That's not the same as a pure DPS spec. Besides, all their specs are meant to balance class resources for best result so they still all play largely in the same fashion, just different flavors.
Mara can spec for ST, AoE, Utility or somewhere in between. The class plays largely the same regardless and they can switch mutation at any time, this is not like SH where you're either melee or you're ranged.

My point is that you shouldn't have to make a RANGE class need to go MELEE for it to be viable. Why don't you come back when there's a melee class spec who performs best by just standing at the backline and throwing daggers and if they don't do that they might get the boot, then you could make an argument.

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normanis
Posts: 619
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Re: RSH Underperforming

Post#44 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:46 pm

if squig will have sw changes doues it means heal debuff will also be 65feet? or will stay 100?
with 65feet u only can debuff tanks anything farer is very high risk to be blowed by ather rdps.

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wachlarz
Posts: 467

Re: RSH Underperforming

Post#45 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:06 pm

franzjaeger wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:42 pm
Jabba wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:59 am
franzjaeger wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:50 am


Except mSH is the "off spec" for SH, rSH is the main spec and no matter how you spec your rSH (dps, utility, aoe (lol)) you're not really wanted. That is not the same as playing a dps-specced healer or tank or solo-specced engi/magus/WL/mara. SH is a range class first and foremost, if I wanted to play a melee class I would play mara or choppa. Re-speccing to mSH from rSH is not the same as switching around some points and tactics to get more AoE/utility, you completely change everything about how the class plays to the point where you might as well just have switched to a different char. It's just not the same thing.
Loner isn't the main spec for wl.
SnB isnt main spec for sm/BG who were clearly designed as 2h tanks.
Arguably, pure heal isnt main spec for am/shaman whose mechanic is meant to promote hybrid lifetaps.
Is monstro mara it's main spec?
What's your point?
The main reason Loner is required for WL in RvR is due to how badly pets perform when they're dead which is all the time in this AoE meta, that affects SH as well.
SnB is not an obscure spec for any tank and they all have the choice between 2H and SnB.
Hybrid lifetap am/shaman is still a healer and they can even perform well in ORvR if played right. That's not the same as a pure DPS spec. Besides, all their specs are meant to balance class resources for best result so they still all play largely in the same fashion, just different flavors.
Mara can spec for ST, AoE, Utility or somewhere in between. The class plays largely the same regardless and they can switch mutation at any time, this is not like SH where you're either melee or you're ranged.

My point is that you shouldn't have to make a RANGE class need to go MELEE for it to be viable. Why don't you come back when there's a melee class spec who performs best by just standing at the backline and throwing daggers and if they don't do that they might get the boot, then you could make an argument.
Hehe i remeber ranged mara bug. U just throw axe and kill Sw. And yes of spec better then main spec is weird.

Bergbart
Posts: 20

Re: RSH Underperforming

Post#46 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:42 pm

Ahh i like Play rSh in its current state but he is lowbie the buff come its decidet and the most of us can do nothing.

I like my former Sw more than the present but it Changes. Im more interrested in the solution and the impact(and new playstyles) its offer. Get not so emotionaly. enjoy.
Choppa rr 70
Sw rr 62

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PlagueMonk
Posts: 36

Re: RSH Underperforming

Post#47 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:39 pm

Zadorck wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:55 pm
PlagueMonk wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:00 pm
Zadorck wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:16 pm
It has been a while now since the SW got buffed, and i believe that many players noticed it.

I knows that we've been told that Rsh buff/rework will comes after, i have also no doubt that the dev team is working on it and doing their best
Even thought we knows that: Melee sh is pretty decent, pets got buffed, the Rsh dmg difference is clearly huge compared to the Rsw atm, and surely that is why almost nobody is playing it.

Today i've been again surprised from the dmg output of a rr58 SW, with 2x devast 2x anni 2x conq / subj weaps, dealing 10797 dmg in 4 sec to my Rsh with 0% chance to be crit.
I've got many alts, but whenever i try to play my rsh i get fast dissapointed and bored to sadly stop playing it, mine is rr50+ with conq/beast, i realize it's not a lot, but i bet i don't do as much in this time frame.

I do not want to make any drama out of it, that's why i've hidden the player's name, but still got the original screenshot for those not believing me.

I just wanted to share the evidence, thougths ?

https://prnt.sc/v79lyc

As others have pointed out you have MANY more tools at your disposal than a SW so if you are simply trading arrow shots and not using them, of course you are going to lose. That's like allowing a WL and their pet to just beat you in the face without moving. SW are a DPS class and not much else (like a pet or decent armor) so if they aren't able to melt someone's face in a short period of time I would say there's a problem. I've seen SH just pew pew pew pew pew and drop someone (including myself) in a few secs.

I'm also not seeing quite the 10k damage you are claiming. After mitigation, they actually did < 6k to you in 4 secs. Not saying it's not a lot of damage but closer to have what we are seeing.

As for no chance of crit, you do know in WAR that doesn't really mean zero right? Others have abilities that RAISE their crit which offsets your anti-crit chance. This is just like having enough armor to drop damage supposedly to zero but yet you can still take damage.

Last thing, since classes are not balanced on a 1 v 1 basis, you should not be comparing yourself to the SW as far as damage. If we did I would be calling for a SH nerf since my WP has virtually zero tools to beat your class (which is extremely annoying btw) You both might use a bow but you have a pet which completely changes the dynamic of how damage is done.
Wow you looks very experienced.
Btw were not you the one who made a topic asking why you died instead of killing a 84 full sov bo on your lvl 24 WP? Just asking for a friend tho

While yes, that was the end result, that was not the point of the thread. As I said, I had no clue until LATER what his specs were. That however just made my question even more valid.

If you are attempting to say, because of that post, I somehow have no right to comment on your post then you would be wrong. Apparently in the time since that post I have learned some things you have not. I have gone up against rSH with 4 different Order classes many times so I have plenty of experience on the other side of the fence.
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CeeJay89
Posts: 170

Re: RSH Underperforming

Post#48 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:58 pm

franzjaeger wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:55 am
Spoiler:
Cptkud wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:17 am
Well, rSHs are an easy kill so they are targeted first. Most classes can burst kill you in 3 sec so you aren't much use to the WB. Healers don't heal you, cause you melt so fast, and tanks don't guard you cause you have to kite to survive. And if a WB doesn't kick you for a better option, you get dumped in either your own party or a party with lowbies, WEs, and no healers. So how is that fun? You might as well be solo which if there's a WH or WL around, you're dead.

Some of this is true in my experience. I usually have no issues with healers not healing me, I haven't really met any healers who have class bias even in organized wbs. I get guard sometimes, but usually only if wb leader explicitly instructs tanks to guard rdps for example when oil is up. Order rdps seems to be always guarded on keep walls though, why does destro tanks so rarely do this? There's always a good share of tanks just afk in keep when they could be guarding rdps.

I have been kicked once from a wb to be replaced by a healer when we were low on healers. It happens and I get it, I'm no mad about that specific situation. At least that means the wb leader cares about managing the wb, it's even worse when half the wb is afk or in other zones and groups are messed up. A couple of times I've been placed in the dump parties with lowbies and no healers, sometimes it had made some sense, other times the wb leader is just clueless to what the classes actually bring to the table and just want to make sure they and their friends get the best group composition. If that happens I try to find a new wb.

It can be hard to be an rdps with little to no AoE and barely any ST burst to talk about compared to other classes, because utility is so undervalued by the general community. The classes who get a bad reputation have a hard time redeeming themselves, all some people see are raw DPS numbers and draw their conclusions from that.


CeeJay89 wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:33 am
I don't understand. Are Squig Herders really concerned about not having a fighting chance? You have a literal tool for everything, and your damage is anything but weak.

RUN AWAY!, Run Away!, KABOOM!, Drop That!, Horn Squig knockdown, Sticky Squiqz, stackable detaunts...all but one being a baseline ability.

I'm not even going to get started on mSH. There's no other class that has the utility and tools a SH has. I can't fathom how you can possibly expect more.

You've already gotten started on mSH, three of the abilities you listed are in the mSH tree, one even requires squig armor and one is tied to a squig that only mSH uses (if that, most run Territorial Aggression and many rSH run All By Meself). In general, tools tied to squigs are unreliable at best and usually only relevant in small scale encounters. In ORvR your pet of choice is dead 90% of the time and with a 2s summon that is interrupted on movement, a 30s cooldown and high AP cost there is no practical juggling of squigs, fitting them in a rotation or reaction-based usage the way for example SW can switch stances.


What a joke. Remember when people used Drop That! and KABOOM! for their magnificent damage? No? Me neither. You get them regardless of whether you spec melee or not, and are therefore accessible to any SH build.

If you are incapable of utilizing these abilities effectively to kite people, then maybe you're playing the class wrong.
Last edited by CeeJay89 on Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hardkoar
Posts: 217

Re: RSH Underperforming

Post#49 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:31 pm

Jabba wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:34 am
Still don't understand why people are talking about rSH not being wanted in warbands as a reason for changing them. If you want to play in warbands on a sh, you don't play rSH.

If you want to play in warbands on zeal/shaman/dok/rp/wp/am....you don't play dps, you play heal.

If you want to play warbands on a tank, you don't play as a loldps spec, you play as snb or select 2h utility specs.

If you want to play in a warband on choppa/slayer, you don't play 2h spec, you play dual wield with the appropriate spec.

If you want to play as an engi/magus, you don't play as a single target/toughness roam spec. You spec appropiately.

WL you don't play with pet spec. You play loner.

Mara, you don't play a savagery/brutality build. You spec Monstro.

etc etc


All classes have specs that are not viable for warbands, if you want to play in proper warbands on these classes, maybe you don't get to play your preferred spec. For SH, this means you play mSH, rather than range.
I find it interesting how you compare a TANK Dps to a Squig herder, a RANGED DPS CLASS , telling them ''don't play the lolspec'' go melee...
You have totally understood the point of this entire post.

ceramicartist
Posts: 33

Re: RSH Underperforming

Post#50 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:15 am

Onigokko0101 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:23 am
Onigokko0101 wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:22 pm

What? What magical GCD can remove more then one debuff at a time?

3x Broadhead requires 3x cleanse
Purify- Requires righteous fury: Your purify an ally, removing ONE curse or Hex. Has a tactic that can make it groupwide AoE, still only removes one effect per target.

Glimpse of Chaos: You call upon the power of chaos, removing ONE Curse or Hex from your target.

Patch Wounds: You patch an ally's wounds removing ONE Ailment or Hex

I could keep going on but I am sure that its obvious by now.

The only way to remove all the debuffs is a Morale.
Please stop. You are wrong.

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