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WH and WE (Discussion)

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MedV
Posts: 190

Re: WH vs WE (Discussion)

Post#11 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:47 pm

This post isnt about WE vs WH fighting each other. Its comparing them head to head ability wise. The differences and similarities. Who is better equipped for taking out their targets.
Honestly too many to count

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Koha
Posts: 145

Re: WH vs WE (Discussion)

Post#12 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:03 pm

MedV wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:34 pm
Both WE and WH have ranged finisher
As for finishers :
1/ distance :
back in some version of RoR only WH had ranged finishers, but now
WE have all finishers at 30 ft and WB procs on Throw dagger at 65 ft range
WH don't have all ranged: BAL and Burn Heretic are 5ft and BAL is postionnal.

2/ for abilities :
WE complaining about not being able to apply the proc debuff when then want are so wrong. Kisses procs gives you debuff most of the time on opening.
Uptime is 100 % even on the 5sec healdebuff. The AP drain kisses can really drain someting.
It is to be noted that most WE finishers are 2 hits => WE is meant to be a proc machine.

3/ their only issue :
Both classes have strengths and weaknesses and the comparison is not so relevant.
They both face a more important problem : they do not fit in meta and have little to offer that others can't do better.
SH Kikass WE Melni BG Melnibone
WH Merci Slayer Koagul Many others

Zxul
Posts: 1007

Re: WH and WE (Discussion)

Post#13 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:22 pm

As others pointed out, each has its own advantages and disadvantages (as a WE, just getting away for 5 sec during RB is not as simple as it is suggested btw, though there are ways of dealing with it).

Main problem though is similar for both classes- both are pretty much useless in wbs, in mass rvr based game.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

Seravajan
Posts: 133

Re: WH vs WE (Discussion)

Post#14 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:26 pm

The WE has a small bug (internal cooldown after a Kiss proc) in the Kisses making her somewhat weaker. A benefit of the WH is that he has some short-ranged options.

Both classes need some melee snare to be more viable. Even it is on a cooldown.

Squizzel26
Posts: 11

Re: WH and WE (Discussion)

Post#15 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:44 pm

They should do what Mythic should have done from the start and get rid of stealth. Make both classes agile glass cannon dps that specialise in executing low health targets.

To be clear i'm not a hater, I played wh on live to rr85. The class is so much fun to play when you want to run solo but it's unbelievable frustrating to play against. Especially as a low level character who has zero chance against a well geared ganking wh/we.

Zxul
Posts: 1007

Re: WH and WE (Discussion)

Post#16 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:58 pm

Squizzel26 wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:44 pm
They should do what Mythic should have done from the start and get rid of stealth. Make both classes agile glass cannon dps that specialise in executing low health targets.

To be clear i'm not a hater, I played wh on live to rr85. The class is so much fun to play when you want to run solo but it's unbelievable frustrating to play against. Especially as a low level character who has zero chance against a well geared ganking wh/we.
"Make both classes agile glass cannon dps that specialise in executing low health targets"- and just exactly are those classes suppose to get to those targets without stealth, and why exactly would anyone play those over a st sorc/bw?

"Unbelievable frustrating to play against. Especially as a low level character who has zero chance against a well geared ganking wh/we."- LTP issue on your side. On any of my toons I can deal with whs just fine. And anything low lvl will die vs a well geared high lvl, so what are you trying to say exactly?
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

Seravajan
Posts: 133

Re: WH and WE (Discussion)

Post#17 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:02 pm

WH/WE vs any healer: 0-1.

Any low level character does not have any chance vs any decent geared high level character.

Krima
Posts: 361

Re: WH and WE (Discussion)

Post#18 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:26 pm

MedV wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:10 pm
There are some slight differences in the WE and WH. I am not gonna discuss in detail which class is better, this will just be a topic on what the main differences are and how that effects gameplay. I am no expert on the WE and of course am probably missing some key abilities. The differences are below.

** This is not a post about WH fighting WE - Its about the differences between the class and which has an upperhand in killing their target **

WE
Kisses can be proceed on all attacks (Pro- More dps ; Con- cannot proc on demand)
Masterful Treachery- More dmg when coming out of stealth
Wracking Pains - Tough/WS debuff and dps overtime
Witchbrew - DPS
TOB - Chance to increase dmg for a period of time
Death Reaper- Morale 3- Crit rate for group increased by 50% for 10 seconds
Baneful Touch - Restore AP when hitting from Rear or Flank

WH
Repel Blasphemy- Parry for 5 seconds (Pro- great against melee dps and tanks for survivability)
BAL - Major DOT plus Burst DPS
Exit Wound - Lowers Tough/Str and WS but uses up finisher points


Seems to me that WE excel in doing more burst and sustained dps. While the WH can string together 12 seconds of 100% parry. I would like to argue that BAL is the best ability either of these classes have, but does not make up for missing so many important tactics the WE gets plus a way better M3.

Any thoughts on which class might have an edge in 1v1s?

Being wanted in group play depends on a couple of aspects. AOE, group buffs, Mobility, Burst etc. Give us a Group Buff. As it stands - KOTBS, SM, BW, Engi, RP, AM and WP (for order) all have group buffs. My proposal is as follows.

Final Cleansing: Group buff which lasts 1 hour. Each attack on an enemy has a X% chance to burn target for Y damage over Z time.
This will be paired with a tactic - Critical Cleanse: Any enemy with the Debuff "Final Cleansing" will be 5% more likely to be crit by other group members.
add to WHs also:
- Seekers Blade
- Prolonged confession
- Flowing accusations
- Inquisitors fury (on crit) much better uptime oposing to MoM..
- Morale 4 I win button

ATM both are pretty even..They are not 100% mirror. WH have the edge versus a WE.
I still stomp all whs, some rly bad players out there :lol:

I really dont get your "Exit Wound - Lowers Tough/Str and WS but uses up finisher points " Witchbrew uses finisher points also.. would u want you Exit wounds not consume finisher points? plsss :roll:
Last edited by Krima on Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Krima RR 80
Playing Witch Elf only since Live :twisted:

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Hardkoar
Suspended
Posts: 242

Re: WH and WE (Discussion)

Post#19 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:28 pm

Squizzel26 wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:44 pm
They should do what Mythic should have done from the start and get rid of stealth. Make both classes agile glass cannon dps that specialise in executing low health targets.

To be clear i'm not a hater, I played wh on live to rr85. The class is so much fun to play when you want to run solo but it's unbelievable frustrating to play against. Especially as a low level character who has zero chance against a well geared ganking wh/we.
Lmao. '' Make both classes agile glass cannon dps that specialise in executing low health targets '' . Might as well make the classes a pet.

As for burst dmg, melee Shadow warriors are better assassins than the assassin's classes.
Last edited by Hardkoar on Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Zxul
Posts: 1007

Re: WH and WE (Discussion)

Post#20 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:30 pm

Anyway to add something to WE compared to wh- racial tactics. Wh got racial absorb- 375 absorb with 3 sec CD, while WE got 10% extra healing (as in, DE racial tactics are amazingly bad).

WE got absorb on being crit, but 600 absorb isn't anywhere near close to covering for 2 k crits WE can get from different classes. And once defensive WE/wh starts adding FS ranks, WE absorb become less useful with each rank, while wh absorb keeps being good.

Another thing is kisses vs bullets- in Absolution spam build wh actually gets more bullet procs than what WE can get, even with WE using fastest wh weapon. In addition, per whs at least (hadn't tested it personally), Dragon Gun triggers bullets on all targets hit, resulting if using heal off bullets tactic in a very large self heal. WE has nothing similar.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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