Fort Tracking One Month In

[junkxjunk]

Theres always one...both sides zerg. Get off your high and mighty horse. Play late night NA eastern prime time where order has 160 vs 40 destro. You biased simpletons can only ever see one side of the coin and think your side is perfect and does no harm...everything you accuse one realm of doing, guess what, the other realm does the exact same thing.

Want some cheese with that whine?
Fact is Destro has higher pop and stronger classes. This means Destro will zerg, and it usually works (see: Cities, oRvR, most SCs), unless you have a situation where zerging is neutralised: One example is forts with their pop cap. Another is scenarios like Thunder Mountain where zerging simply doesn't do you any favors. And in those situations, Order has the advantage because Order has to l2p thanks to lower pop and weaker classes. That's how it works.

Oh yeah the famous capless Scenarios/Cities...
Or could it be that there is something that magically turns the only part of the game with a true unavoidable funnel into a deathtrap for Destro regardless of their organisation?

Also at this point It might very well be that people dont defend/dont organise because defending fort seems like a lost cause. Honestly I think rampage isnt the only problem here, its just a the cherry on dop of superior AOE dps/ healing. Its alot of small things, but on my tank with dps meter i could definately see the increase of SW dmg after the patch. Now another VERY solid ranged order class got a buff that promotes Stationary play.

[zij83]

Theres always one...both sides zerg. Get off your high and mighty horse. Play late night NA eastern prime time where order has 160 vs 40 destro. You biased simpletons can only ever see one side of the coin and think your side is perfect and does no harm...everything you accuse one realm of doing, guess what, the other realm does the exact same thing.

Want some cheese with that whine?
Fact is Destro has higher pop and stronger classes. This means Destro will zerg, and it usually works (see: Cities, oRvR, most SCs), unless you have a situation where zerging is neutralised: One example is forts with their pop cap. Another is scenarios like Thunder Mountain where zerging simply doesn't do you any favors. And in those situations, Order has the advantage because Order has to l2p thanks to lower pop and weaker classes. That's how it works.

Did you really just include cities and SCs in a list of places destro will zerg?

[junkxjunk]

There's a very small key factor missing on Destro side.. It's called slayer, with his undefeatable, undefendable, unmarriable, unchuggable, unparriable and unbalanceable aoe spam for 20 seconds. When order push the IWIN button on slayers they maw through Destro tanks, when Destro tries to do the same with their choppas / maras what they get is a LolBlocked, LolParried, LolAbsorbed situation.

Slayer is overrated and Rampage is only a problem because Destro classes have it easier with parry builds. Mirror Rampage for Chopper and nothing much would change because Order can't really do high parry builds anyway. Just use a different tank build, it's a non-issue. I kill much more people with my clunky DPS 2H SM than with my Slayer.
Also there aren't even that many Slayers on Order. It's not as if you're up against 10 at once all the time.

[/quote]

Okay now im sure you are either just trolling, or so bad your guild grp consists of 2 dps ams and 12 engies in city. I bet the reason you dont kill things on your slayer is because you are not worth the guard. Jesus.
And btw for a very long time the best order city groups bring 4+slayers... but you wouldnt know.

[Jastojan]

A quick personal opservation ive made since last two weeks of playing on destro,

Very rarely are there any driving organized force. Many times one pug leader steps up and tries to make a 2-2-2 warband but it has yet to be filled by 24players, several times have i seen this 2-2-2 warband only being attempted after first failed Stage3 push, as if this was a sudden suprice that the attackers needed to form 2-2-2 to withstand out outsustain the aoe presure from the order funnelheroes.

Also whenever i peak my head inside said funnel, and playing with char-names turned off and only showing guildnames it becomes pretty clear that order have several "fort focused" guilds who very often are well represented in the order fort-defences. Rescue team, fog of war, Smash etc. Depending on timezone this will swing up or down.

Destro succesful fort attacks seem to be pretty much sole relying on if FMJ has event (feel free to disagree or correct me on this one)

Now if i take my own opservations and match it with this stat data, it seems like order in general have no issue pushing the caldronfortress in the Elf pairring however Destro is almost never breaking Reikwald cauldronfort. This to me, shows that when Order realm get the momentum and ball rolling its very succesful, either because of people switch side and forfeit the defence-idea to secure a city inc. Or because destro doesnt have the same setup with funnel criticalmass maybe lack of rdps and too many mdps, or tanks on destro have mostly swapped to the idea of 2handers and no hold the line to cover the choppaball in a meatgrinder.

TUP has shown that if destro was more organized and having 1-2 warbands to vanguard then forts can be broken even with the mentioned order semi organized 6-12man stacks doing their thing. FMJ has done the same, and even provided an Altdorf city by securing two fort attacks the other night after the destro pugs had left stonewatch and FMJ swapped to this fort, after succesfully claiming the Elf fortress.

Overall I would say destro need to reequip the shields on their tanks, get into propper 2-2-2 warbands so you dont die to a single RoF, and for the love of Mork do not attack Reikwald randomly when other zones are open, this is the first step to breaking the realm momentum and morale.

Long story short - L2P problem you say.

To my eyes it looks like - the L2P is just one part of the problem, but... I do not believe that there are so huge differences in organization between order and destro in every battle in fort to have such sick overall winrate numbers:
Overall Fort Win Rate: Destro - 26.36% Order - 73.64% !

I can tell you that from healer´s point of view, it is noticeably harder to keep your WB alive on destr side (the aoe is massive even if you have properly equipped snb tanks). BWs and engies could keep you under massive pressure and then you will see incomming army of slayers to make the battle done. To be honest what do u need to organize when you can stack slayers to crash your opponents like a worm? There are more factors which have impact on this winrate. This is not about L2P only.

[necrofeel]

I love how Order says that Destro are zerging. All of us are zerging. Order are zerging if you think having 200+ in a single keep defense is not a zerg you are wrong. Order really knows very well how to funnel nothing more nothing less. Running 5-6 WBs together is also a zerg and we see that every day from Order. Both Realms are zerg heavy just Order currently are better in staying stacked in a keep aoeing the door:)

[Parallels66]

A quick personal opservation ive made since last two weeks of playing on destro,

Very rarely are there any driving organized force. Many times one pug leader steps up and tries to make a 2-2-2 warband but it has yet to be filled by 24players, several times have i seen this 2-2-2 warband only being attempted after first failed Stage3 push, as if this was a sudden suprice that the attackers needed to form 2-2-2 to withstand out outsustain the aoe presure from the order funnelheroes.

Also whenever i peak my head inside said funnel, and playing with char-names turned off and only showing guildnames it becomes pretty clear that order have several "fort focused" guilds who very often are well represented in the order fort-defences. Rescue team, fog of war, Smash etc. Depending on timezone this will swing up or down.

Destro succesful fort attacks seem to be pretty much sole relying on if FMJ has event (feel free to disagree or correct me on this one)

Now if i take my own opservations and match it with this stat data, it seems like order in general have no issue pushing the caldronfortress in the Elf pairring however Destro is almost never breaking Reikwald cauldronfort. This to me, shows that when Order realm get the momentum and ball rolling its very succesful, either because of people switch side and forfeit the defence-idea to secure a city inc. Or because destro doesnt have the same setup with funnel criticalmass maybe lack of rdps and too many mdps, or tanks on destro have mostly swapped to the idea of 2handers and no hold the line to cover the choppaball in a meatgrinder.

TUP has shown that if destro was more organized and having 1-2 warbands to vanguard then forts can be broken even with the mentioned order semi organized 6-12man stacks doing their thing. FMJ has done the same, and even provided an Altdorf city by securing two fort attacks the other night after the destro pugs had left stonewatch and FMJ swapped to this fort, after succesfully claiming the Elf fortress.

Overall I would say destro need to reequip the shields on their tanks, get into propper 2-2-2 warbands so you dont die to a single RoF, and for the love of Mork do not attack Reikwald randomly when other zones are open, this is the first step to breaking the realm momentum and morale.

Long story short - L2P problem you say.

To my eyes it looks like - the L2P is just one part of the problem, but... I do not believe that there are so huge differences in organization between order and destro in every battle in fort to have such sick overall winrate numbers:
Overall Fort Win Rate: Destro - 26.36% Order - 73.64% !

I can tell you that from healer´s point of view, it is noticeably harder to keep your WB alive on destr side (the aoe is massive even if you have properly equipped snb tanks). BWs and engies could keep you under massive pressure and then you will see incomming army of slayers to make the battle done. To be honest what do u need to organize when you can stack slayers to crash your opponents like a worm? There are more factors which have impact on this winrate. This is not about L2P only.

you would actually be suprised how little slayer/BW players there actually are on order, i know alot of guilds are really trying to recruit more because of how little people play those classes, i know from the order guild im in, we have an average of 30~ players on at a time not including alliance and maybe have 1-2 slayers/BW mains. from playing engy and magus i honestly think magus is better overall than engy but i guess the main issue there is engy is a huge population of orders rdps but not many people play it comparitively on destro, sorc aoe is worse than BW but lets be real here, sorc AoE spec is only a tad bit worse than BWs, its not so gamebreaking worse than theyre useless like majority of destro seems to make out. IMO i think the main tipping point for AoE in forts is the mass of SW order side has with their aoe dots etc they can put on, with the new tactic fix (even before) the amount of aoe pressure you can do on a SW is actually insane.

[Jastojan]

I mentioned slayers especially because I just wanted to point out that even pug do not need to think hard about the squad because they have "recipe" for easy success ( or much easier than on destr side) + not so high requirement for WB organisation (in that case). I do not say that it is not L2P problem on destro side, but L2P is only one part of it + 1 slightly better performing class (BW/Sorc - rSH/rSW) + another slightly better performing class + another... result could be huge difference in total dmg output (healing done or even in organisation requirements).

[Gurf]

If you have a Slayer you realise on Fort push they are one of the weakest class, they have no good morale so often you are better off using M1 to try survive, then if you are enraged you are the squishiest class on the front line. WL is much better with damage m2 and interrupt, just about any dps class is better to be honest on attack. Mara though is far better than both, Mara is pretty much designed to break funnels with its reflect tactics and morales so all the Order ranged can melt under their own damage, yet its barely used effectively in my experience, most probably don't even realise what they have got. Plus all mdps have a tactic to reduce ranged damage by 25%, do any of the Des players use that to reduce pressure on the healers?

[Pandastyle]

Maras have what? a reflect tactic? You mean backlash? Which is a chaos race tactic...nobody is running it...250 elemental dmg over 5secs in the current meta lol?
What morales are you speaking of? the m2 1200 dmg cone? yeah thats quite neat but thats it not that gamebreaker imo...
Yes all mDPS have the close quarter tactic, I did some forts with it and felt no difference tbh. Also you have to hit a enemy with a direct melee attack... doesnt do anything if you melt in mere seconds to massive aoe in the funnel

[Rekoom]

He is talking about Forked Aggression, M4 in Brut tree