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Re: Fort Tracking One Month In
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:51 am
by Gurf
Tillbeast wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:43 am
Numbers decides orvr unfortunately and currently order has the numbers and therefore has more organised players and better equipped players. Its a cycle, about half a year ago destruction had the numbers and the server was really bad for order, they would lose most cities and just get zerged badly in orvr. However forts are not about numbers its primarily about how many of the classes that are strong in sieges have made it into the fort. Order classes are better in sieges, always has been its just the way it is. AOE is the king of fort defence and fort offense and order aoe is better than destro aoe. This is why order wins forts, its not a l2p issue its just an advantage order has. Now on an equal server where player base is equal in orvr and cities it is more equal. Order cannot hide there huge quantities of high dps aoe classes behind a tank wall whilst destro have to funnel one or two at a time through a narrow door. Destro can manouver themselves so they can get stuck into the squishy dps classes whilst in open field and there are very few places where players can be funnelled in a city. Ideally order needs about an overall 10-15% dps nerf to its aoe or destro's healers need better aoe healing but I think increasing destro healing would cause more issues than it solves
Destro biggest issue at moment is loss of morale and the numbers deserting them which gives order a huge advantage. It looks like order classes are unbalanced primarily due to the numbers but although I do believe order classes are slightly stronger overall there is not a lot in it. The real difference from now and from when I played more regularly 6/7 months ago is that there are a lot more order tanks and melee dps and they have suddenly discovered the guard ability. I was hoping that would had reduced the number of bw's/engi/dps am order had thinking they had switched to melee but there is still an obscene amount of them so I guess all the ones that left destro for order took the destro mentality of preferring melee over to order side.
Time will fix the issue though. Once the all the xrealmers have got there order characters to the level they want they will switch back to destro and in about 6-7 months time you will have posts from order players complaining of how unbalanced the server is. Warhammer will always struggle with faction balance because of the biggest screw up in game design history was made by the original devs back in the mid 2000's when live was being designed.....you cannot do a game primarily based around rvr with 2 factions....it needs 3...players want to be on the winning side naturally and lose interest if one side gets an advantage, in a 3 faction server once one realm got an advantage the other 2 naturally ganged up on the other preventing them from getting too far ahead. Thats not possible on a 2 faction server. Unfortunately the period of time that one faction has the advantage over the other is getiing longer and longer and this is causing actual overall numbers of players to drop.
Love this game and its painful watching it in its current state
Most days EU time anyway Destro has the number advantage, until EU Prime when Order logs on, just look at the Fort tracker and Destro attacks more Forts than Order.
The problem are the bad x-realmers who log to the winning side rather than the side with AAO, so as soon as Order organised warbands log in EU Prime too many easymoders switch over
Re: Fort Tracking One Month In
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:21 pm
by VindicoAtrum
Gurf wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:51 am
The problem are the bad x-realmers who log to the winning side rather than the side with AAO, so as soon as Order organised warbands log in EU Prime too many easymoders switch over
AAO does nothing to prevent zergs steamrolling zones to forts/city.
For the losers, you can multiply shitty renown gain as much as you want, if you're dying all the time to a bulldozer zerg you don't get much renown anyway. For the winners, they don't get a malus to renown so there's no incentive to move.
AAO should either 1) be a scale of -75% to 400% (four times less renown to four times more renown). You go to a zone that's 400% AAO for Order, you get 25% of the renown you usually would, and they get 400% renown they usually would; or 2) affect medallion drop rates negatively for the overpopulated side.
Re: Fort Tracking One Month In
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:39 pm
by Abe
Sponn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:30 am
The way I see it is that Order has 1 more viable ranged where as Destro has 1 more viable Melee.
Ranged Aoe/bombers
Ranged for Order: Shadow Warrior, Bright Wizard, Engineer
Ranged for Destro: Magus, Sorc
rSH is more of a single target nuisance.
Melee Aoe/Meleeball
Melee for Order: White Lion, Slayer
Melee for Destro: mSH, Mara, Choppa
mSW is more of a single target nuisance.
I would say to make everyone happy why not just give Order another viable meleeball aoe dps, and give Destro another viable Aoe/bomber. At this point I don't care if it is an explosive throwing axe build from a choppa for the aoe ranged build.
Off the top of my head you could turn Shadow Warrior into a meleeish build if barrage was moved to the assault tree 5 point location (useable in skirm and assault stance) and you just took the cooldown off sweeping strikes.
Then maybe give rSH the SW skirm tree or something? Cause they do want something, that vibe is for sure.
IMO adding more aoe is NOT the answer, all that will mean is both factions will be equally frustrated and both factions will have difficulty in forts. Possibly no attacker wins or very few.
Re: Fort Tracking One Month In
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:43 pm
by Abe
Dackle wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:02 pm
Gurf wrote: ↑Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:10 am
The pattern is pretty clear by now, Destro have a legion of small scale heroes which makes them really fast at running supplies and levelling zones to push to Forts, but without proper Warbands you will never get much further, a horde of DPS Shammies isn't going to help much.
but they are so fun to play...
Wow the altruism on Order side is monumental, apparently almost no one on order plays a "fun to play" character. Oh the sacrifice lol
Re: Fort Tracking One Month In
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:13 pm
by diedrake
From observation on the times i play. does destro struggle with forts? yes, seems like later US primetime is when order pushes to IC. Main thing is that destro numbers are really low. This gives order advantage to push to the IC because little resistance. Let alone destro cant field a fort defense.
I have also seen that early US mornings (5-8 am Central) destro has pushed Aldorf. I am not on prior as I am asleep, but I am guessing destro can push aldorf with little resistance and not a lot of order to put a defense in the forts as well.
Primetime EU lakes are close to a stalemate usually with destro domenant, but enough organized order wbs that the campaign is slow to progress.
Order in general are way better at forts due to our classes that the dps fill( rdps) with a few mdps, which in turn is strong for fort defenses. But it also depends on the time of day on which faction is domenent. Primetimes dont seem to help unless strong organized guild/alliance wbs are out, pushing hard.
Observation two, having seen the lakes a lot, order seems to have larger number of active guild/alliance wbs pushing and working together. As destro seems to have a lot of small guilds and or 6 mans ganking. The Gank grps are fun yes, but ultimately that doesn't help in the grand scheme of the campaign. As is 6 man or gank grps are in a different spec and hunting gear that would further increase their lethality in small fights. Those specs do not shine in large scale fights such as Forts most of the time. For instence, 2h tanks or dps healers, are great for small scale but not so in forts. These off speced characters also might not have the gear needed to fight in large scale as they have hunted for dps gear rather then the main spec gear.
Due to the faction that fields more small scale grps, those characters can respec but might not have the gear to make that main spec shine in bigger conflicts.
Re: Fort Tracking One Month In
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:56 pm
by Sofong
just wanted to say getting invader is like infernal mode on destro, and the contrib system is hard to figure out, sometimes defending a fort cant even get the 2 loser meds.
Re: Fort Tracking One Month In
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:55 pm
by Cptkud
Sofong wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:56 pm
just wanted to say getting invader is like infernal mode on destro, and the contrib system is hard to figure out, sometimes defending a fort cant even get the 2 loser meds.
Getting gear has really turned into a nightmare. Huge turn off to this game for me. While I don't expect them to just hand gear out, getting meds is a pain in the ass. Wait till you need meds for your Sov. I'm doing half Warlord and half Sov, I FINALLY got the 5 pieces of Warlord I need and I'm so burnt out. By the time I start getting my Sov, the next gear set will be out and I'll be so far behind I'll probably just give up. Can't imagine what it's like for fresh 40s. :/
Re: Fort Tracking One Month In
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:09 pm
by wargrimnir
Cptkud wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:55 pm
Sofong wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:56 pm
just wanted to say getting invader is like infernal mode on destro, and the contrib system is hard to figure out, sometimes defending a fort cant even get the 2 loser meds.
Getting gear has really turned into a nightmare. Huge turn off to this game for me. While I don't expect them to just hand gear out, getting meds is a pain in the ass. Wait till you need meds for your Sov. I'm doing half Warlord and half Sov, I FINALLY got the 5 pieces of Warlord I need and I'm so burnt out. By the time I start getting my Sov, the next gear set will be out and I'll be so far behind I'll probably just give up. Can't imagine what it's like for fresh 40s. :/
There isn't going to be a gear set after Sov. Anything else implemented will be rather significantly behind Sov in power scaling and is from the remaining Dungeons.
Re: Fort Tracking One Month In
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:15 pm
by VindicoAtrum
Cptkud wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:55 pm
Sofong wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:56 pm
just wanted to say getting invader is like infernal mode on destro, and the contrib system is hard to figure out, sometimes defending a fort cant even get the 2 loser meds.
Getting gear has really turned into a nightmare. Huge turn off to this game for me. While I don't expect them to just hand gear out, getting meds is a pain in the ass. Wait till you need meds for your Sov. I'm doing half Warlord and half Sov, I FINALLY got the 5 pieces of Warlord I need and I'm so burnt out. By the time I start getting my Sov, the next gear set will be out and I'll be so far behind I'll probably just give up. Can't imagine what it's like for fresh 40s. :/
1) The contrib system isn't hard to figure out, and it's easy to cheese. If you're earning renown or affecting the battle objectives you're earning contribution. Bonuses for each color bag every time you miss it = go run a box or cap a BO in every zone to stack bonuses as fast as possible. Easy route to bags for doing pretty much **** all when the action starts. Since you get bag rolls
even when losing a zone this is a surefire way for both sides to get invaders.
2) There is zero plans to add gear above sovereign - this has been stated as recently as the Q&A session. It's slow for that reason. You should be playing the game and naturally acquiring royals, not grinding them specifically. Invader & royal shards was a step in the right direction however - I'd not be surprised to see real drop rates eek up as more players reach higher renown levels.
Re: Fort Tracking One Month In
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:38 am
by paperclipdog
If you look at the timezone with the most amount of organisation present on both sides (EU-Prime, GMT 17:00-23:00) and check all full forts there's almost a 50/50 winrate for both sides. If destro was inherently extremely disadvantaged this would likely not be the case. This ofc proves nothing aswell but maybe it will at least help some people consider that the issue might not be purely class balance related.
Obviously the only thing this data can really tell us is that destro loses a lot more forts than order overall, while at the same time having equal winrates in City.
It can not tell us why that is. Please stop trying to pretend that it can!