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SoR change

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phononHYPE
Posts: 399

Re: SoR change

Post#141 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:02 am

I like the change.
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Sofong
Posts: 241

Re: SoR change

Post#142 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:55 am

change is bad for the underdog side i agree but if destro is zerging how come IC forever 1 star???

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Orgruk
Posts: 167

Re: SoR change

Post#143 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:22 am

Kpi wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:38 pm
Remove the pop from SOR is the best change in the game ever. I hope they remove AAO soon too
Same fer me !
Secrets wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:19 pm
In my opinion next round of changes should.... re-tune of Choppa's 1h AOE abilities vs the output of Slayer 1h AOE abilities

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Elenori
Posts: 18

Re: SoR change

Post#144 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:24 am

Sorry if I skipped a part of the discussion but I'd still like to share some of my observations.

This change helps neither only Order nor only Destruction - instead, it's beneficial to the more numerous side at any given moment. They simply don't need to mind the uncertainty since they have the numbers, while the opposing side is struck with even more reluctance than usual. This also affects the smaller groups that usually carry supplies - people seem less eager to do that (and I sympathize - it's not fun to suddenly be met with a huge crowd without warning).

Another negative is that it's not possible to know even the approximate numbers for an area. This is really weird as we should at least know the size of our own forces. Sometimes I like to play alone, and sometimes in groups, but this simply increases the time needed to find an appropriate area for either. It only makes an impression of not respecting our time.

The common advice is to be communicative - but the guilds seem to often keep to themselves and especially in off-hours the chat is only filled with questions. What a person could discern before with a quick look, now requires a thorough interrogation. Not really an improvement.
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Gurf
Posts: 462

Re: SoR change

Post#145 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:30 am

In the more busy time of Prime Time the new SOR is great, for example yesterday in Reik we had both sides sieging each other at once, as neither side knew exactly what was going on in the other. Maybe outside of Prime it makes it easier for the zerg side but it was already easy for the zerg side even with the numbers.

Fenris78
Posts: 211

Re: SoR change

Post#146 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:50 am

After few days testing without SoR numbers :

- We spend more time doing nothing but trying to figure how much allies/opponents are in each zone.

- There is actually LESS informations and useful intel in /1 and /t4 chats, since nobody want to spend so much time constantly telling whats is going on and what's they doing.

- AAO is by no means a relevant indicator since its the same ratio 1/4 and 100/400. Without a vague population indicator it's not possible to figure how much ppl are in zones.

- Spending all the time flying around zones, playing hide and seek, asling questions in chat for no answers, using our tp and long-cd teleportation options for mostly wasted effort is not fun either.

- Small group play is widely penalized : you cannot take actions without knowing what's going on, and you don't have always a scout (ie. WH/WE) to send and try to pick info for others. All is left to do is either wandering around with fog of war and blindsides on, or logging off of boredom.


To sum it all, since you dont even have info about allies presence (or not) in zone, you cant coordinate anything, you cannot plan strategies, and your reaction time is about zero in case of mass inc, fort siege, etc. especially with the new respawn mechanic (wich was fine with numbers info).

Seeing numbers was fun and game was flowing in a smooth way ; is was still unpredictable because you couldnt always tell is opponent were about to siege with even numbers, you were fearing about a siege at any time with uneven numbers.
You could see unexpected turns of tide too, like winning a defense being widely outnumbered, etc. Numbers were barely an indicator of enemy activity, but more of a thermometer of things and what to expect (but not always).
Small groups could actually act by fighting in non-overpopulated zones and contribute with their actions (wich are limited indeed, but nonetheless essential), and they also could join the zerg when it was needed.

So yes it had drawbacks, like being able to see for instance small group of opponent sieging in other zone, where you knew you could easily scatter them with one warband, but it also allowed tactical moves for allied realm like reinforce the siege by sending more support. It was always a double-edged sword, and I loved it (and I think I'm not alone).


Anyway, there is clearly a balance to find if you dont want to see exact numbers in real-time, probably a population indicator like "small/medium/big/massive" for each side and zone, to help figure out where the action is, without becoming too granular and overinformative (thus last months were actually the most fun I had in the game since a long time).
Last edited by Fenris78 on Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Brickson
Posts: 89

Re: SoR change

Post#147 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:43 am

Spoiler:
Fenris78 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:50 am

[...]
Anyway, there is clearly a balance to find if you dont want to see exact numbers in real-time, probably a population indicator like "small/medium/big/massive" for each side and zone, to help figure out where the action is, without becoming too granular and overinformative (thus last months were actually the most fun I had in the game since a long time).
It's probably still too early to judge the effects of the current changes. But nonetheless this sounds like an interesting solution. Maybe something like:
1-10 'lone wolves'
>10-50 'small forces'
>50-100 'medium forces'
>100-250 'large forces'
>250 'army'

This would give you a general idea about the activity in a zone without being too specific. Scouting would still be usefull. Very similar to the battle indicators on the map.
It would also allow small groups to distract the enemy or at least force them to scout by flipping an empty zone to 'small forces'.
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Xergon
Posts: 648

Re: SoR change

Post#148 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:06 pm

Fenris78 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:50 am
After few days testing without SoR numbers :

- We spend more time doing nothing but trying to figure how much allies/opponents are in each zone.

- There is actually LESS informations and useful intel in /1 and /t4 chats, since nobody want to spend so much time constantly telling whats is going on and what's they doing.

- AAO is by no means a relevant indicator since its the same ratio 1/4 and 100/400. Without a vague population indicator it's not possible to figure how much ppl are in zones.

- Spending all the time flying around zones, playing hide and seek, asling questions in chat for no answers, using our tp and long-cd teleportation options for mostly wasted effort is not fun either.

- Small group play is widely penalized : you cannot take actions without knowing what's going on, and you don't have always a scout (ie. WH/WE) to send and try to pick info for others. All is left to do is either wandering around with fog of war and blindsides on, or logging off of boredom.


To sum it all, since you dont even have info about allies presense (or not) in zone, you cant coordinate anything, you cannot plan strategies, and your reaction time is about zero in case of mass inc, for siege, etc. especially with the new respawn mechanic (wich was fine with numbers info).

Seeing numbers was fun and game was flowing in a smooth way ; is was still unpredictable because you couldnt always tell is opponent were about to siege with even numbers, you were fearing about a siege at any time with uneven numbers.
You could see unexpected turns of tide too, like winning a defense being widely outnumbered, etc. Numbers were barely an indicator of enemy activity, but more of a thermometer of things and what to expect (but not always).
Small groups could actually act by fighting in non-overpopulated zones and contribute with their actions (wich are limited indeed, but nonetheless essential), and they also could join the zerg when it was needed.

So yes it had drawbacks, like being able to see for instance small group of opponent sieging in other zone, where you knew you could easily scatter them with one warband, but it also allowed tactical moves for allied realm like reinforce the siege by sending more support. It was always a double-edged sword, and I loved it (and I think I'm not alone).


Anyway, there is clearly a balance to find if you dont want to see exact numbers in real-time, probably a population indicator like "small/medium/big/massive" for each side and zone, to help figure out where the action is, without becoming too granular and overinformative (thus last months were actually the most fun I had in the game since a long time).
Almost all the issues u described comes from player mindest and mentality. Imagine that RvR was played w/o SoR addon for over 4 years, and no one ever complained during that time. Action was spicy and unpredictable. The issue that players do not communicate can be solved very easly.

About making action in zones, well be the pro-active group instead re-acting group. Ofc its easy to react when enemy starts siege and be on defense to control fight, so dont expect that others will do it for ur willing. Basically only PUGs WBs sacrifice themselves to make siege happen w/o info about enemy forces in zone, and we all know how this will end. Now, if u had 3 Groups (12-24man) coordinated to spread around zones, making bait/fake sieges or actually sieges, communicating between, ye then it would be interesting gameplay. But we all know being PROACTIVE is harder than being REACTIVE.

The worst part is that Battlefied Objectives means almost nothing, realm tries to get into 2star asap to make siege happen, sometimes defenders might go for 3star to make siege harder but after that, BOs are almost meaningless. 5star locking zones is nice idea but same issue like before, no one willing to put hard work to it non that premade groups actually care about it either.
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Gurf
Posts: 462

Re: SoR change

Post#149 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:14 pm

Fenris78 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:50 am


- AAO is by no means a relevant indicator since its the same ratio 1/4 and 100/400. Without a vague population indicator it's not possible to figure how much ppl are in zones.
The way around that is that you look at AAO, then you do a Player search for the friendly players in the zone , from that you know roughly how many opposition are in the zone, or at least you know if there are about 10 or about 100

Fenris78
Posts: 211

Re: SoR change

Post#150 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:29 pm

Gurf wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:14 pm
The way around that is that you look at AAO, then you do a Player search for the friendly players in the zone , from that you know roughly how many opposition are in the zone, or at least you know if there are about 10 or about 100
The tool exists ingame, it's very clunky and not ergonomic : more time used for inconvenient info gathering, less time for fight.

If the search function is now the "workaround", why not displaying the results in SoR ? You'll have info about where your realm is fighting without relying on inconvenient and time-sink tools, and you can actually deduct opponent's numbers by looking at AAO.

Best of the two worlds, without giving too much infos.

Otherwise, let SoR have a search function with one click on the zone you're in, like did the old Zonepop, but only displaying your Realm population.
Less ressource intensive (less real-time requests from everyone), and you'll have to do it actively (and being in zone) to see numbers.

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