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Krima
Posts: 404

Re: MSH -

Post#31 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:50 pm

Rapzel wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:43 pm
First you can only parry from the front, AW spam is done from the back for obvious reasons.
Second

Wow.. thanks for the info! did not know that. AW and go for da soft spot so easy to land
Krima WE RR 85

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Hardkoar
Suspended
Posts: 242

Re: MSH -

Post#32 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:58 pm

You only get behind bad players, or KD'd players, in anyway, it aint ''AW spamming..''

Here we are talking about a class, the MSH, that has no positional needs and does more single target damage than anything else. While retaining it's AOE, Tankiness, Mobility, ability to just go rdps on demand and kite and have access to a whole lot of other tools.

Can we please stop trying to somehow defend this sorcery? lol. The MSH is stupidly overwpowered, there is no way any respectable player can not see it.

Rapzel
Posts: 176

Re: MSH -

Post#33 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:05 pm

Hardkoar wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:58 pm
You only get behind bad players, or KD'd players, in anyway, it aint ''AW spamming..''

Here we are talking about a class, the MSH, that has no positional needs and does more single target damage than anything else. While retaining it's AOE, Tankiness, Mobility, ability to just go rdps on demand and kite and have access to a whole lot of other tools.

Can we please stop trying to somehow defend this sorcery? lol. The MSH is stupidly overwpowered, there is no way any respectable player can not see it.
The issue is when the people who complain about mSH, also proclaim WE and WH are weak and needs buffs, it becomes quite difficult to take it seriously.

Neverever
Posts: 120

Re: MSH -

Post#34 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:08 pm

İnterpretation of the common knowledge exeggration : I can't really prove or state reasons but I believe it is broken. Oh you orderings are hilarious

Hardkoar
Suspended
Posts: 242

Re: MSH -

Post#35 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:12 pm

Neverever wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:08 pm
İnterpretation of the common knowledge exeggration : I can't really prove or state reasons but I believe it is broken. Oh you orderings are hilarious
Don't be that guy, there's pages explaining what it is broken about that class, it's even worst than WL Guardian spec on it's prime.

Neverever
Posts: 120

Re: MSH -

Post#36 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:18 pm

Hardkoar wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:12 pm
Neverever wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:08 pm
İnterpretation of the common knowledge exeggration : I can't really prove or state reasons but I believe it is broken. Oh you orderings are hilarious
Don't be that guy, there's pages explaining what it is broken about that class, it's even worst than WL Guardian spec on it's prime.
Can you please quote some of that precious data that shows what is broken about the class. Can't wait to see..

Neverever
Posts: 120

Re: MSH -

Post#37 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:19 pm

Hardkoar wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:58 pm
You only get behind bad players, or KD'd players, in anyway, it aint ''AW spamming..''

Here we are talking about a class, the MSH, that has no positional needs and does more single target damage than anything else. While retaining it's AOE, Tankiness, Mobility, ability to just go rdps on demand and kite and have access to a whole lot of other tools.

Can we please stop trying to somehow defend this sorcery? lol. The MSH is stupidly overwpowered, there is no way any respectable player can not see it.
SW, Engi, Magus and WL techincally has the same potential. I think you confuse SH with SW because SW is the class that can use it's ranged abilities on its melee phase not SH. Can we stop trying to to prove something stupidly based on assumptions instead of specific data and explaining on what points and how it is overpowered..

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wonshot
Posts: 718

Re: MSH -

Post#38 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:20 pm

A few thourghts:
The overhaul seemed to be aimed at the class-mechanic by having a pet, and from community expectations of this being purely a ranged overhaul it also affected the melee spec(s).
IF the class identity is to have a strong pet useage (he is a herder after all) then the pet aspect of the class probably needed to be improved on.

However,
Overly tieing too much of the new goodies into the pet MIGHT create issues in the future. Example see how immobile magus and engineers are because without their turret they fall flat or find themselves to be way too situational of a class.

Now looking at the biggest pet-changes for the Melee version of the new Squigherder, the Morlale1 ability is one out of just a few morale abilities that has a lenght longer than the standard 10seconds. This buff has 15sec duration and the standard 60sec cooldown before you can use an other morale ability. Since this previous morale3 ability is now an M1 it gives a powerspike early in the fight for a pet-herder (ranged or melee but with a pet) where as other defensive options probably need to be used to counter this powerspike in pressure. (like a healer M1 to catch the spike damage) This gives pet-herders a visual burst to now look out for early in a fight, and it creates tempo.

Mixed with the M1 a pet-herder will probably use SquigFrenzy (60sec cooldown, 20sec uptime. Yet again burst on demand class mechanic you can tecnically pop as soon as you reach your target, you have no slayer/choppa rage bar you need to buildup, no combustion or dark magic you need to prebuilt, its just pure burst on demand available from the get-go.

Armordebuff tied to the pet, strikethrough tied to the pet, the pet multihitting for burst. All 3 of these seem like one too many, but if one has to go it would be at a cost of a trade-off and not just a pure nerf. I think the Strikethrough is welcome for MSH, but it is implimented wrongly in this first version of the overhaul. Instead give the Squigarmor the ability to covert Ranged strikethrough from gear into melee strikethrough and remove the 10% from the Horned squig. This will be a slight buff to aoe-petless SH, will allow for more gearing options & less "dead stats points" and open up for more pet-variation for the MSH not having to run Horned. Once again, fitting the identity of being a rich-availabilty loaded class with options and not restrictions.

Now the aoe corp debuff on Gassquig is interesting, and a good idea on paper for pet-variety. But destro already have a lot of other avenues to corp aoe debuffs and a very slim portion of the SH aoe damage is corp. This could probably be reworked to something else, if running a Gassquig pet aoe build was to be appealing. Maybe have gassquig lower the cooldown of Farty-squig (explode your current pet for yet an other aoe ability available) and if you like this idea, maybe there is a follow-up idea of having a pet mechanic of cycling through the pets for a benefit at the cost of managing your pet cycle. Who knows.

Alright taking a step back and lets get an overview, if the MSquigherder is trying to get the following identity and role:
- Utility-dps
- Acces to both melee and ranged
- Mobile RangedArchtype with the con of having no Jugga.
- Cooldown dependant & reliant class
- Slight debuffing role.
- Pet mechanic
- Cant outburst "pure damagedealers"

Then the burst of the class needs to be kept in check, yes WL was brutal for years and we are seeing some of the same with mSH and the coordinated strike(with 1min cooldowns!) happening on horned meatball build. The cooldowns stay true to the identity, but with so much debuffing, controlling, mobility and sticking-power having a 100-0 kill in a knockdown is probably overloaded, especially with armor and self-peel on top.

Move the strikethrough from the Horned pet into Gear-conversion, lower the duration of the pet-burst cooldowns abit to adress their uptime(same as Rampage needs). The tempo is fine and gives msh something unique in terms of role on top of debuffing and being the cooldown reliant class to match with the greenskin cooldown decreasers for thema.
Improving the pets are probably a good thing, but keep an option in there for situations where players get frustrated with the Pet AI or if the pet dies too quickly in largescale (cant balance the pet to be fair in both smallscale and largescale).
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Alts:Meatbomb SH[invader/royal] Powerhouse Zealot [vanq] Chopling Choppa[invader] Notbombling Sorc [sub40]
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Hardkoar
Suspended
Posts: 242

Re: MSH -

Post#39 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:26 pm

Neverever wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:19 pm
Hardkoar wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:58 pm
You only get behind bad players, or KD'd players, in anyway, it aint ''AW spamming..''

Here we are talking about a class, the MSH, that has no positional needs and does more single target damage than anything else. While retaining it's AOE, Tankiness, Mobility, ability to just go rdps on demand and kite and have access to a whole lot of other tools.

Can we please stop trying to somehow defend this sorcery? lol. The MSH is stupidly overwpowered, there is no way any respectable player can not see it.
SW, Engi, Magus and WL techincally has the same potential. I think you confuse SH with SW because SW is the class that can use it's ranged abilities on its melee phase not SH. Can we stop trying to to prove something stupidly based on assumptions instead of specific data and explaining on what points and how it is overpowered..
U get out of SA and u start pewpewing, having access to slow/DA/etc... You have no idea what you are talking about and if you DO play a MSH you should try to actually use all your tools instead of 123'ing in WBs. As stated above, there's plenty of explanation on why and how it is oP, hell a guy just linked a 9k dps on this very thread.

The guy posting right under your comment, YET AGAIN, explained most issues one more time.

No class should be that tanky with that much dmg and mobility, like I said, the only thing he is missing is a Party heal and he can replace 9/10 classes.

Neverever
Posts: 120

Re: MSH -

Post#40 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:35 pm

Hardkoar wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:26 pm
Neverever wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:19 pm
Hardkoar wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:58 pm
You only get behind bad players, or KD'd players, in anyway, it aint ''AW spamming..''

Here we are talking about a class, the MSH, that has no positional needs and does more single target damage than anything else. While retaining it's AOE, Tankiness, Mobility, ability to just go rdps on demand and kite and have access to a whole lot of other tools.

Can we please stop trying to somehow defend this sorcery? lol. The MSH is stupidly overwpowered, there is no way any respectable player can not see it.
SW, Engi, Magus and WL techincally has the same potential. I think you confuse SH with SW because SW is the class that can use it's ranged abilities on its melee phase not SH. Can we stop trying to to prove something stupidly based on assumptions instead of specific data and explaining on what points and how it is overpowered..
U get out of SA and u start pewpewing, having access to slow/DA/etc... You have no idea what you are talking about and if you DO play a MSH you should try to actually use all your tools instead of 123'ing in WBs. As stated above, there's plenty of explanation on why and how it is oP, hell a guy just linked a 9k dps on this very thread.
Dude the mere reason MSH needed to go ranged in this phase and they decreased SA cooldown and AP is because they nerfed Squig leap by taking away it's damage. Now, why would a MSH go in ranged where it loses all the stat bonuses and double armor it gets from SA. Besides it's ranged is basically limited to 65ft range now. If you think it is possible to hybrid melee and ranged phases like in SW, you are perfectly mistaken. Again, I am still waiting for that pages of data that shows MSH is broken. Please do quote.

Plus, in that screenshot it says not a solo kill so the training dummy was clearly attacked by another player
Last edited by Neverever on Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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