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AM in City Instance not worth playing

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Gurf
Posts: 520

AM in City Instance not worth playing

Post#1 » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:21 am

There is a big problem when it comes to playing AM in City instance whereby they are always focused and targeted first, partly because they are insta res but also they have very few escape tools, lightly armoured and are interrupted easily while standing out due to their model. This has got so bad that many high rr AM I know say they just won't play City any more because it is just too rough and no fun and many new players will give up after a few instances, it is just constant focus and death.

Compare this to the life of the Shaman, who due to their insane survivability and kiting tools with small model it is easy to survive and provide the resing and puddle tools they are brought for while also given the space and time to put out good healing.

This is a big disparity and imbalance between the factions as in tight fights the ability to res quickly in one of the most important factors and while there are a swarm of Shammies happily playing City this isn't the case for AM. Not sure exactly what can be done but something needs to happen to balance the survivability between AM and Shaman in City as right now it is a big imbalance, one is focussed and killed first while the other is focused last, that is the massive difference in survivability.

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Ysaran
Posts: 1084

Re: AM in City Instance not worth playing

Post#2 » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:28 am

Gurf wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:21 am
There is a big problem when it comes to playing AM in City instance whereby they are always focused and targeted first, partly because they are insta res but also they have very few escape tools, lightly armoured and are interrupted easily while standing out due to their model. This has got so bad that many high rr AM I know say they just won't play City any more because it is just too rough and no fun and many new players will give up after a few instances, it is just constant focus and death.

Compare this to the life of the Shaman, who due to their insane survivability and kiting tools with small model it is easy to survive and provide the resing and puddle tools they are brought for while also given the space and time to put out good healing.

This is a big disparity and imbalance between the factions as in tight fights the ability to res quickly in one of the most important factors and while there are a swarm of Shammies happily playing City this isn't the case for AM. Not sure exactly what can be done but something needs to happen to balance the survivability between AM and Shaman in City as right now it is a big imbalance, one is focussed and killed first while the other is focused last, that is the massive difference in survivability.
Do you play shaman?
NOCTURNE
Zputakatarro-Choppa rr83
Zputadenti-Shaman rr77
Ysaran-Blackguard rr60

and then WP, AM, IB, Slayer and SH

Dabbart
Posts: 2075

Re: AM in City Instance not worth playing

Post#3 » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:40 am

As a Destro main currently, I don't see the disparity vs shaman. They get focused for the same reasons, though the model argument doesn't apply to them, using Enemy markers and assisting, it isn't hard to find them. Especially since we are fighting 24v24 over either static objectives or a moving lord. You can't kite half the time, that's the problem. Sham's don't benefit from this more than AMs imo. If kiting was a factor they would be more in demand.

Generally speaking though, it's the power of insta-rezz and cloth armor. But you have a 5s AoE detaunt, which should be enough time to get a guard/challenge/bellow. The problem is that there tends to only be space for 1 am/sham in an organized group. The other healers are just too tanky and have too many tools to pick a AM/sham over. Which is sad, double group cleanse is awesome. But RP/Z has far too many tools and general survivability, and DoK/WP will always be core, unless the class was broken.

How would you fix it though, w/o A, breaking DPS am/sham and B, remaining somewhat balanced? One hopes that AM/Sham will get some love. They have had iterations on this server where they reigned supreme. I used to kite/tank half a WB on my AM during the op life-tap months. Whatever it is though, you can't just give them a bunch of tools or survivability.

Not every class is awesome for city sieges. A WB that needs a healer however, will take an AM much faster than I imagine WHs or the 19th engi gets picked...
Azarael wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:30 pm
It's only a nerf if you're bad.

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Sponn
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Posts: 200

Re: AM in City Instance not worth playing

Post#4 » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:45 am

Dabbart wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:40 am
As a Destro main currently, I don't see the disparity vs shaman. They get focused for the same reasons, though the model argument doesn't apply to them, using Enemy markers and assisting, it isn't hard to find them. Especially since we are fighting 24v24 over either static objectives or a moving lord. You can't kite half the time, that's the problem. Sham's don't benefit from this more than AMs imo. If kiting was a factor they would be more in demand.

Generally speaking though, it's the power of insta-rezz and cloth armor. But you have a 5s AoE detaunt, which should be enough time to get a guard/challenge/bellow. The problem is that there tends to only be space for 1 am/sham in an organized group. The other healers are just too tanky and have too many tools to pick a AM/sham over. Which is sad, double group cleanse is awesome. But RP/Z has far too many tools and general survivability, and DoK/WP will always be core, unless the class was broken.

How would you fix it though, w/o A, breaking DPS am/sham and B, remaining somewhat balanced? One hopes that AM/Sham will get some love. They have had iterations on this server where they reigned supreme. I used to kite/tank half a WB on my AM during the op life-tap months. Whatever it is though, you can't just give them a bunch of tools or survivability.

Not every class is awesome for city sieges. A WB that needs a healer however, will take an AM much faster than I imagine WHs or the 19th engi gets picked...
Pretty sure it is like playing a shaman but without the explosive knockback and "Run away" tactic.

Dabbart
Posts: 2075

Re: AM in City Instance not worth playing

Post#5 » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:49 am

I've played both. I've played every healer. Every class has escape tools.

What if Run Between Worlds increased WBW's duration to 10s and decreased CD by 20s, thereby giving them a 100%(instead of 50% with current tactic and 1/6th time w/o tactic) AoE detaunt? It would be 30ft surrounding them, so not as powerful as the wp/dok targeted one, but still a 100% uptime AOE detaunt. Copy that to Sham taking out their ele tactic or similar. Would an AoE detaunt make them "tanky" enough? Or would anyone want a tanky AM over an RP anyways?

I don't suggest this change, my point being, is tankiness the problem? Slayers aren't tanky. But they are desired. What does AM/sham bring besides morale, insta rezz, puddles, ST heal spikes, and grp cleanse? 3 of which require individual tactics. Sham morale takes 2 tactics, but is far far far better.
Last edited by Dabbart on Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Azarael wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:30 pm
It's only a nerf if you're bad.

(see, I can shitpost too!)

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Nekkma
Posts: 641

Re: AM in City Instance not worth playing

Post#6 » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:49 am

When a melee train find a weak link they will keep exploiting that. This goes for both sides. The city that just took place I more or less endes up guarding the group shaman constantly because the slaver/wl train was on him all the time. He still died quite a few times even tho We outkilled order by 10:1 ratio.
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Nekkma
Posts: 641

Re: AM in City Instance not worth playing

Post#7 » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:01 am

Sponn wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:45 am

Pretty sure it is like playing a shaman but without the explosive knockback and "Run away" tactic.
Explosive knockback? Both classes have the same knockbacks. Even tho I seldom play my shaman in city I usually drop run away as I find it of limited use because of the often small areas in city.
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Gurf
Posts: 520

Re: AM in City Instance not worth playing

Post#8 » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:03 am

Those who play Destro if you see 1 or 2 AM in City instance who is your priority target? Very likely it is the AM
I don't play Shammy and I know life can be rough for all healers in City but I know from my experience that Shammy is very rarely the first target for Order groups, even though Insta res is very powerful and important but we all know that Shammy is very hard to kill and we don't want to spend 5 minutes kiting around

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Gurf
Posts: 520

Re: AM in City Instance not worth playing

Post#9 » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:17 am

Nekkma wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:01 am
Sponn wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:45 am

Pretty sure it is like playing a shaman but without the explosive knockback and "Run away" tactic.
Explosive knockback? Both classes have the same knockbacks. Even tho I seldom play my shaman in city I usually drop run away as I find it of limited use because of the often small areas in city.
What about Auto Detaunt, this gives the Shaman the ability to Detaunt even when CC'd and knocked down. Also if you are in a City instance where you are getting focussed and it is rough you can then equip run away with auto detaunt to give you the chance of surviving the focus. Am will just have to rely on Tanks and guard.

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Nekkma
Posts: 641

Re: AM in City Instance not worth playing

Post#10 » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:24 am

Yes, AM is not as tanky as shaman and is probably the most difficult healer to perform well on in city. I disagree that this creates a faction imbalance tho. Classes are different and RP feels a hell of lot more tanky than zealot for instance.
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