Total lack of WH versatility

[Rumpel]

Of course we do have the best survival mechanic of all classes in the game and that is the ability to decide when we fight and when we want to end it if its not going our way

Thats it! Thats why im loving my stealthy. Many Witch Hunter i see do not use their possibilties. No self punt, no vanish, no restealth, no use of distance finishers. Just fight till death like a slayer... . I think its the wrong class for warband aoe playing or brainleas buttonsmashing. Thats slayer.

The fact we/wh have problems getting into citys is compensated for me thru the mass of bags you get easily in orvr as wh/we. My tank needs ages getting bags.

[Tabelrel]

Been thinking about this a bit more and for a slightly more radical change but one that keeps them in line with what Mythic originally intended, but subsequently nerfed for commercial reasons (i.e. keep the majority of the player base at the time happy who were not WH\WE). The nature of the WE\WH were heavily nerfed in the first few months of the game, but that was because most players were in greens/blue and as players became more defensively built those nerfs were never compensated for and re-balanced when perhaps they should have been. This is not an RoR but AoR thing.

Not necessarily, something i would look for as i'm happy enough where the WE is at the moment but i guess maybe a straw man proposition.

Mythic WH role:
Whether you're positioning yourself for a devastating strike against an unwary enemy or going toe-to-toe in the thick of the fight, there are few places on the battlefield where a Witch Hunter does not belong. In the face of your tireless assaults and interrogation, your enemies quickly wither and fall – be it by blade, bullet or torch. While your pistol can be a powerful and devastating weapon under the right circumstances, it is slow and awkward to reload in close-quarters. As such, you will make frequent use of the deadly speed and effectiveness of rapiers, knives, stakes, torches and daggers. You will also find it useful to anoint your weapons before a fight to dispatch your unholy enemies with even greater efficiency.

Mythic WE role:
A Witch Elf can be an unstoppable force of death and destruction under the proper circumstances. By picking their targets carefully, the Witch Elf can win a fight in a short amount of time. A Witch Elf prefers to rapidly close with lightly armored targets, where their wicked poisons can find exposed flesh. Using a combination of rapid attacks, the Witch Elf works herself up into a Frenzy to execute powerful attacks that will stop most opponents dead in their tracks. When facing a heavily armored foe, the Witch Elf relies on her agility to survive long enough to pick apart her opponent's defenses and opening him up to a savage death blow.

So from this the WE was always designed to be front loaded with a large amount of damage for a short period of time i.e. her frenzies and to burn down most targets including healers, while the WH was more survivable and in it for the longer game or for final executions so the same mirror just opposite sides of it.

There was a small period in this game where I remember you could live the marketing hype and attack the back line with some chance of success. That lead to interesting fights where it wasn't just full frontal zerg on zerg, like it is now, but front line and back line attacks. Again, that isn't an RoR development, but with the arrival of Slayers/Choppa's an AoR thing.

If you wanted to return to the very original concept:

1. Give the WE back her burst damage i.e. crits/unnerf AW etc so she is properly front loaded damage again.
2. Remove the GCD from Riposte so the WH can perform their role and be more surviable, especially against melee.
3. Remove or reduce the range on WE finishers. It always seemed daft to me my WE could puncture someone from her daggers @ 30 feet. Makes no logical sense, and that was just a sob given to the WE's as due to the nerfs Mythic were seeing a total exit of the WE community so again a commercial decision to hold onto subs.

This doesn't necessarily help with being wanted in a WB\City etc but that is just the nature of them, they are primarily ST damage dealers and Choppa's/Slayers coming later to the game implemented that WB Melee role better. That said, with a proper WB set up they both can put out large damage and offer utility such as heal/wound de-buff, staggers etc. It's a pity no one see's those capabilities on a scoreboard just kills/damage/protection/healing etc when if you could see those stats they may be more welcome and perceptions change a bit as to their utility

Of course when you start talking of unnerfing/buffing where do you stop, back to more damage on the WL, the AoR BW who was a walking nuclear bomb.... etc etc

[Sinisterror]

Been thinking about this a bit more and for a slightly more radical change but one that keeps them in line with what Mythic originally intended, but subsequently nerfed for commercial reasons (i.e. keep the majority of the player base at the time happy who were not WH\WE). The nature of the WE\WH were heavily nerfed in the first few months of the game, but that was because most players were in greens/blue and as players became more defensively built those nerfs were never compensated for and re-balanced when perhaps they should have been. This is not an RoR but AoR thing.

Not necessarily, something i would look for as i'm happy enough where the WE is at the moment but i guess maybe a straw man proposition.

Mythic WH role:
Whether you're positioning yourself for a devastating strike against an unwary enemy or going toe-to-toe in the thick of the fight, there are few places on the battlefield where a Witch Hunter does not belong. In the face of your tireless assaults and interrogation, your enemies quickly wither and fall – be it by blade, bullet or torch. While your pistol can be a powerful and devastating weapon under the right circumstances, it is slow and awkward to reload in close-quarters. As such, you will make frequent use of the deadly speed and effectiveness of rapiers, knives, stakes, torches and daggers. You will also find it useful to anoint your weapons before a fight to dispatch your unholy enemies with even greater efficiency.

Mythic WE role:
A Witch Elf can be an unstoppable force of death and destruction under the proper circumstances. By picking their targets carefully, the Witch Elf can win a fight in a short amount of time. A Witch Elf prefers to rapidly close with lightly armored targets, where their wicked poisons can find exposed flesh. Using a combination of rapid attacks, the Witch Elf works herself up into a Frenzy to execute powerful attacks that will stop most opponents dead in their tracks. When facing a heavily armored foe, the Witch Elf relies on her agility to survive long enough to pick apart her opponent's defenses and opening him up to a savage death blow.

So from this the WE was always designed to be front loaded with a large amount of damage for a short period of time i.e. her frenzies and to burn down most targets including healers, while the WH was more survivable and in it for the longer game or for final executions so the same mirror just opposite sides of it.

There was a small period in this game where I remember you could live the marketing hype and attack the back line with some chance of success. That lead to interesting fights where it wasn't just full frontal zerg on zerg, like it is now, but front line and back line attacks. Again, that isn't an RoR development, but with the arrival of Slayers/Choppa's an AoR thing.

If you wanted to return to the very original concept:

1. Give the WE back her burst damage i.e. crits/unnerf AW etc so she is properly front loaded damage again.
2. Remove the GCD from Riposte so the WH can perform their role and be more surviable, especially against melee.
3. Remove or reduce the range on WE finishers. It always seecision to hold onto suemed daft to me my WE could puncture someone from her daggers @ 30 feet. Makes no logical sense, and that was just a sob given to the WE's as due to the nerfs Mythic were seeing a total exit of the WE community so again a commercial dbs.

This doesn't necessarily help with being wanted in a WB\City etc but that is just the nature of them, they are primarily ST damage dealers and Choppa's/Slayers coming later to the game implemented that WB Melee role better. That said, with a proper WB set up they both can put out large damage and offer utility such as heal/wound de-buff, staggers etc. It's a pity no one see's those capabilities on a scoreboard just kills/damage/protection/healing etc when if you could see those stats they may be more welcome and perceptions change a bit as to their utility

Of course when you start talking of unnerfing/buffing where do you stop, back to more damage on the WL, the AoR BW who was a walking nuclear bomb.... etc etc

No gcd riposte horrible change, never change this back. I rarely think gcd's are good thing in ror but riposte needs it and live had 0.5s-1s gcd while many skills/mechanics/procs didnt. But riposte could crit live and i think in ror WH's Bullets should be able to crit while WE kisses should have no icd but couldnt crit so double procs possible(this is why WE only has double hit finishers) and overall more procs/dmg. WH's tactic atonement, full confession or seekers blade would have additionally that Fervor's dot part ignores resistances and BAL is 6 seconds duration instead 9 and no dmg nerf. and last hit has 25% chance to do 25% of the dmg as an aoe. BAL cooldown is also 6 second with tactic. Also WH's Should do 35 feet AA dmg from gun.

Moving crit tactic to core for both or better yet into the class themselves. Natural 35% Critical dmg Increased to 50 % with 5 skill points and 2% melee crit per 1 point. Needed qql improvement would be no shared cooldown on relics/poisons i hate the shared cooldown on rp/zealot ritual's as well. I would be happy to not have range finishers on WE if something equal is compensated. WH already hits alot harder than WE with finishers. IF something like old sharpened edge is back im happy to get rid of range finishers and the finisher dmg being lower. Because bleeding edge is not flat increase make it 4 seconds long at least and increase to 66 % and because kisses/covenants/procs overall have been heavily nerfed because proc meta i suggest taking the grp dmg aspect of them away and removing icd from them, making them able to crit or they should ignore some defense so dmg range is not so big.

Then making aoe cap to MAX I MEAN DEFINETE MAX 12 prefer 9 and changing slice with tactic to hit 6 the world of warhammer is okay again=)

[Arcrival]

Spoiler:

Been thinking about this a bit more and for a slightly more radical change but one that keeps them in line with what Mythic originally intended, but subsequently nerfed for commercial reasons (i.e. keep the majority of the player base at the time happy who were not WH\WE). The nature of the WE\WH were heavily nerfed in the first few months of the game, but that was because most players were in greens/blue and as players became more defensively built those nerfs were never compensated for and re-balanced when perhaps they should have been. This is not an RoR but AoR thing.

Not necessarily, something i would look for as i'm happy enough where the WE is at the moment but i guess maybe a straw man proposition.

Mythic WH role:
Whether you're positioning yourself for a devastating strike against an unwary enemy or going toe-to-toe in the thick of the fight, there are few places on the battlefield where a Witch Hunter does not belong. In the face of your tireless assaults and interrogation, your enemies quickly wither and fall – be it by blade, bullet or torch. While your pistol can be a powerful and devastating weapon under the right circumstances, it is slow and awkward to reload in close-quarters. As such, you will make frequent use of the deadly speed and effectiveness of rapiers, knives, stakes, torches and daggers. You will also find it useful to anoint your weapons before a fight to dispatch your unholy enemies with even greater efficiency.

Mythic WE role:
A Witch Elf can be an unstoppable force of death and destruction under the proper circumstances. By picking their targets carefully, the Witch Elf can win a fight in a short amount of time. A Witch Elf prefers to rapidly close with lightly armored targets, where their wicked poisons can find exposed flesh. Using a combination of rapid attacks, the Witch Elf works herself up into a Frenzy to execute powerful attacks that will stop most opponents dead in their tracks. When facing a heavily armored foe, the Witch Elf relies on her agility to survive long enough to pick apart her opponent's defenses and opening him up to a savage death blow.

So from this the WE was always designed to be front loaded with a large amount of damage for a short period of time i.e. her frenzies and to burn down most targets including healers, while the WH was more survivable and in it for the longer game or for final executions so the same mirror just opposite sides of it.

There was a small period in this game where I remember you could live the marketing hype and attack the back line with some chance of success. That lead to interesting fights where it wasn't just full frontal zerg on zerg, like it is now, but front line and back line attacks. Again, that isn't an RoR development, but with the arrival of Slayers/Choppa's an AoR thing.

If you wanted to return to the very original concept:

1. Give the WE back her burst damage i.e. crits/unnerf AW etc so she is properly front loaded damage again.
2. Remove the GCD from Riposte so the WH can perform their role and be more surviable, especially against melee.
3. Remove or reduce the range on WE finishers. It always seemed daft to me my WE could puncture someone from her daggers @ 30 feet. Makes no logical sense, and that was just a sob given to the WE's as due to the nerfs Mythic were seeing a total exit of the WE community so again a commercial decision to hold onto subs.

This doesn't necessarily help with being wanted in a WB\City etc but that is just the nature of them, they are primarily ST damage dealers and Choppa's/Slayers coming later to the game implemented that WB Melee role better. That said, with a proper WB set up they both can put out large damage and offer utility such as heal/wound de-buff, staggers etc. It's a pity no one see's those capabilities on a scoreboard just kills/damage/protection/healing etc when if you could see those stats they may be more welcome and perceptions change a bit as to their utility

Of course when you start talking of unnerfing/buffing where do you stop, back to more damage on the WL, the AoR BW who was a walking nuclear bomb.... etc etc

Tabelrel kind of summed it up good recall of the basic concept of the classes very cool of you to pull up the original info for those that may not have read it. WH was pretty much dropped by many shortly after the slayer/chopper release as well at the end they were in a bad spot.

1. IMO the WE has some solid DPS and good front end still but are just off the mark base stats and critical chance wise. Some of there builds and abilities now make them hard to kill or survive. WH need some stat and crit love too along with an ability damage increase on some of their abilities.
2. I don't disagree with the riposte GCD the way riposte works now (though it's a meh tactic now) I just think riposte should be a skill based ability not tactic slotted. I believe some of the other games based the damage riposte versus the attack incoming damage or based it off of your characters auto attack damage.
3. Yep

IMO we/wh did not scale with the armor, defenses, healing and cc/mobility changes that have occurred over the years. It appears to be an issue of organizing mastery trees, fine tuning gear and weapons and increase base stats. Neither one does well in WB play in a galaxy far far away they could pop in and kill on the back line with a chance of getting away now days its more of a harass for a few seconds and die unless you are on the edge of a wall and can bail off into your WB and get some heals or resurrected.

AOE damage and healing across the board is too high also I don't want another AOE class just some fine tuning. When discussing buffs it definitely needs to be done with care but these to classes need some love and to become a threat again and not in the same ways. In any case these threads are good food for thought when creating a proposal for the developers in the forum i hope 13 pages generate some good ones!

[Shanell]

2. I don't disagree with the riposte GCD the way riposte works now (though it's a meh tactic now) I just think riposte should be a skill based ability not tactic slotted. I believe some of the other games based the damage riposte versus the attack incoming damage or based it off of your characters auto attack damage.

Do you mean riposte should work like slayer's "reckless gamble", choppa's' "Hurtin' Time" and SW's "Glass arrow"? It sounds interesting if so.
WE's parry could do little damage to her to pock Taste of Blood tactics for +15% damage increase for 10 seconds and WH's parry could proc his tactics "Blessed Blade" that increase his AP by 50%.

[Tabelrel]

2. I don't disagree with the riposte GCD the way riposte works now (though it's a meh tactic now) I just think riposte should be a skill based ability not tactic slotted. I believe some of the other games based the damage riposte versus the attack incoming damage or based it off of your characters auto attack damage.

Do you mean riposte should work like slayer's "reckless gamble", choppa's' "Hurtin' Time" and SW's "Glass arrow"? It sounds interesting if so.
WE's parry could do little damage to her to pock Taste of Blood tactics for +15% damage increase for 10 seconds and WH's parry could proc his tactics "Blessed Blade" that increase his AP by 50%.

From what i understand, there is an internal cooldown on the riposte tactic, so while the WH or WE to that matter may riposte multiple attacks they only get the benefit of maybe 1. That certainly in the case of the WH, neuters their middle parry game, where due to parry/higher WS capabilities they would excel at. Less so the WE as that was always more designed around front loaded damage. But fairs points raised, i never really used the Riposte tactic on the WE and will happily bow to those with more experience of using it on live and on here.

There was also this on live, EoB on the WE, but can't rememeber if and what the WH equivalent was. Big downside EoS has replaced it so give up charge/stealth for it, most probably not.



Just for historical interest:

WH Mastery Trees from 2008/2009
2008: http://web-old.archive.org/web/20080912 ... .aspx?id=9
2009: http://web-old.archive.org/web/20090826 ... .aspx?id=9

WE Mastery Tree from 2008/2009
2008: http://web-old.archive.org/web/20080912 ... aspx?id=22
2009: http://web-old.archive.org/web/20090826 ... aspx?id=22

[Rumpel]

2. I don't disagree with the riposte GCD the way riposte works now (though it's a meh tactic now) I just think riposte should be a skill based ability not tactic slotted. I believe some of the other games based the damage riposte versus the attack incoming damage or based it off of your characters auto attack damage.

Do you mean riposte should work like slayer's "reckless gamble", choppa's' "Hurtin' Time" and SW's "Glass arrow"? It sounds interesting if so.
WE's parry could do little damage to her to pock Taste of Blood tactics for +15% damage increase for 10 seconds and WH's parry could proc his tactics "Blessed Blade" that increase his AP by 50%.

From what i understand, there is an internal cooldown on the riposte tactic, so while the WH or WE to that matter may riposte multiple attacks they only get the benefit of maybe 1. That certainly in the case of the WH, neuters their middle parry game, where due to parry/higher WS capabilities they would excel at. Less so the WE as that was always more designed around front loaded damage. But fairs points raised, i never really used the Riposte tactic on the WE and will happily bow to those with more experience of using it on live and on here.

There was also this on live, EoB on the WE, but can't rememeber if and what the WH equivalent was. Big downside EoS has replaced it so give up charge/stealth for it, most probably not.



Just for historical interest:

WH Mastery Trees from 2008/2009
2008: http://web-old.archive.org/web/20080912 ... .aspx?id=9
2009: http://web-old.archive.org/web/20090826 ... .aspx?id=9

WE Mastery Tree from 2008/2009
2008: http://web-old.archive.org/web/20080912 ... aspx?id=22
2009: http://web-old.archive.org/web/20090826 ... aspx?id=22

Thanks for old trees!

Edit: Old Frenzied Mayham tactic looks sweet, 3% crit per Bloodlust. o0 WE is totally lagging crit compared to its playstyle

[abezverkhiy]

Inquisition tree tactics from 2008 look interesting. From current tree I only like Protection from Heresy

[ZEDE]

@Tabelrel
really thank you for old trees !

[Tabelrel]

@Tabelrel
really thank you for old trees !

NP, it's interesting stuff especially looking at he 2008 tree. For the WE apart from being more %crit oriented with the Healers Bane tactic, Black Lotus Blade and no cooldown on some of the frenzies e.g. HRT you can see how a group of WE's, if left unchallenged could effectively shut down a healing back line in entirety; whereas these days no WE\WH really attempts to kill healers in the backline and instead just solo roams or nibbles around the edges of the zerg. So in this original concept you can see the role of th WE was to effectively counter healers, while the role of the WH, as the name suggests, to counter WE's trying to take down healers and with that in mind you would want WH's in your WB to run your WE counter measures. An interesting concept in how long zerg on zerg action can last for with no healers and sure would see a lot of WE\WH mini action in the back lines. With this kind of set up the battle is multi-dimensional, front and back lines. Co-ordinated attacks on backlines healers with a chance of success with front line pushes, melee in the middle deciding do they still push front or defend rear, not just front line slog fests.

Not to say that every healer becomes a Witch Elf pinata, as that is the role of an Engi afterall and a well guarded healer, just healing themselves would potentially survive but their group healing capabilities would be heaviliy limited.

Kind of understand though why they adjusted in later releases, as the 2008 spec is rather op especially by today standards and of course the code may not exist in later releases. Oh to dream..