Total lack of WH versatility

[siglade]

So ra all in all got mitigated only for 23%?! Seems a huge difference to what I wrote and often is said in the forum.

Bleeding Edge is additive, so 20%+50%. RA is the ability that benefits the most from the tactic, Slice do less damage even with BE active than AW(with FP or behind) unless light armor (assuming no armor talis slot) or heavy armor debuff.

[Aurandilaz]

Would rather see PA become an armor debuff or a unique "debuff enemy physical mitigation by -25%" - given to WH as well, RB parry buff can be reworked into some other tactic in the left tree and maybe get better uptime with maybe just +50% parry buff.

Another issue is having your class mobility tied to midtree Elixir and having your crit rely on right tree crit tactic.
Ideally both WE/WH would get crit tactic into core arsenal, or even better have increased crit/modifier become core aspect of the career mechanic, either crit increase from building bloodlust or a lingering crit buff from having used finisher.

Honestly at this point I'd even trade Stealth mechanic away to get medium armor - since apart from ganking people in 1v1, you don't have much time using your "unique career resource" in anything organized, stealth does close to nothing in forts and in cities you move as meleetrain which does not take breaks waiting for the WE/WH to re-stealth.

WE/WH should be the ultimate healer bully, something that poses a real threat to even maxarmored Sov BIS geared healers who normally just detaunt and /lol back at you.
I'm not saying "gib more dmg", rather rework the current tools and ensure that the tools given lead to the results intended with the original class design; healer begging for help from allies and dying if not aided within first 4-8seconds of being assaulted by a WE/WH.

[Krima]

Would rather see PA become an armor debuff or a unique "debuff enemy physical mitigation by -25%" - given to WH as well, RB parry buff can be reworked into some other tactic in the left tree and maybe get better uptime with maybe just +50% parry buff.

Another issue is having your class mobility tied to midtree Elixir and having your crit rely on right tree crit tactic.
Ideally both WE/WH would get crit tactic into core arsenal, or even better have increased crit/modifier become core aspect of the career mechanic, either crit increase from building bloodlust or a lingering crit buff from having used finisher.

Honestly at this point I'd even trade Stealth mechanic away to get medium armor - since apart from ganking people in 1v1, you don't have much time using your "unique career resource" in anything organized, stealth does close to nothing in forts and in cities you move as meleetrain which does not take breaks waiting for the WE/WH to re-stealth.

WE/WH should be the ultimate healer bully, something that poses a real threat to even maxarmored Sov BIS geared healers who normally just detaunt and /lol back at you.
I'm not saying "gib more dmg", rather rework the current tools and ensure that the tools given lead to the results intended with the original class design; healer begging for help from allies and dying if not aided within first 4-8seconds of being assaulted by a WE/WH.

Stealth should have a cast time of 1 sec. So we can at least use properly in scenarios and small scale.

IMO the longer stealth was a bad Idea also, it changed the game and the lakes. It requires less skill now to kill anything as a WE/WH. Grps of WE/WH ganking its just ugly.
After the long stealth changes nobody leaves warcamp alone. No need to WE/WH to abuse all the corners and bushes to hide, 0 adrenaline. Its just too easy now.

I rather have old stealth back with 1 sec cast time, so it can be used more often in cities, grps.

[Tabelrel]

If you agree that "one" of the roles of the classes was to potently suppress healer activity then i guess you neeed to decide do you want to build it back? Like I said this is RoR not AoR but i think it would give the WE\WH some purpose back and a reason to be include in a WB.

They actually have the toolkit to suppress healing with 2 healdebuffs and disrupt buff to avoid the defensive tools of healers. What they lack is the ability to single-handed kill a healer, because this would make healer classes pointless, if they couldn't defend against a single opponent, how they are supposed to heal their group against multiple attackers. To effectively kill opponents, you have to assist each other unless one sides lacks support classes like tank and healer.
For city siege, a single target grp with WE/WH is totally viable.
Fort siege are something you usually only endure to get the invader currency, you just farm it, no matter what. Being in a group or warband as WH/WE, nobody should really care.
In rvr zones, nobody forces you to play in warbands, it's not like it's the only way to play rvr. Afaik ppl, who pick WH/WE, don't have the mindset of playing in a huge rvr zerg and spamming aoe, usually they prefer small scale encounters.

Personally, I enjoy playing the WE as she is and if she isn't changed at all I'm really not that bothered and certainly not advocating for a major rework or massive upping of damage capabilities, just maybe a bit more defintion of role, if the community thinks it makes sense. I don't play in WB's as really can't stand being told what to do and where to go so prefer small scale fights and the thrill of 1vs 1 or 1 vs 2 combat. Forts well just part of the grind,small rooms AOE not really a WE thing anyhow, some Cities but can be kinda of fun with a well organised group and can be small scale useful in those with the de-buffs etc.

To respecfully respond to Sulorie's points about the current toolkit and being able to kill a healer and Anrandilaz's point about being the ultimate healer bully as they are kind of linked.

Do I think a WE or WH should be able to burn down a healer assisted or not , especially a cross-healed or guarded one. No, the damage output to do that would affect every other encounter with a WE\WH in the game so certainly not. Not to say that if caught solo either class should have the capability over time to do that.

Do i think, a healer if under attack by either class should have to re-direct their energies to keep themselves a live at the expense of group heals or for the WE\WH to have abilities that affect wider group heals, then yes. I think this ties into earlier thoughts of a multi-dimensional game, can you drop your WE\WH smart bomb into the back lines with the potential enough to disrupt healer output to make a difference when co-ordinated with a push or happy with out heal/out dps encounters. Can WE\WH's be that little gap in the armour that changes the parameter of battle? Obviously organised wb/play comes in here as well but keeping it basic.

Does the current toolkit give a reason to to include WE\WH in a warband or really bully healers, no most probably not and i guess this ties into Zede's post title of versatility and reason for inclusion in Wb's. Also, If you have potent healer disruptors in a WB then you also need their counters to disrupt them from being able to do that. You can take the concept that one of their trees should be more anti-healer buffed and work incrementally around that to find a balance that defines the role more.

If you have been following Krima's post on moving IP tactic to core then that free's up a tactic slot where something like Healers Bane which doesn't currently exist could be added back in. Not sure if the codebase would allow that and whether the 25% chance to reduce healers abilites by 75% for 10 seconds when allied with BLB and KoD which also co-existed with it (just were more buffed version of themselves) is way too op, most probably too op but perhaps a toned down version, an incremental trial or affects group buffs only/outgoing heals only

Rights that's it, I'm going to shut up now promise and who would of thought we could have this length of conversation without it becoming a drama thread. Merry XMAS everyone

[teiloh]

I think WE/WH having the potential to get both 50% outgoing and incoming is enough as far as heal debuffs go.

[MMXX43]

Nice ,the post turned into a we/wh topic when the issues is only with the wh .

[Hienzwar]

Nice ,the post turned into a we/wh topic when the issues is only with the wh .

This will continue to rumble on and on and on......

Still failing to see any real issue other then serious wb functionality but even that you can make work.

[Sulorie]

Nice ,the post turned into a we/wh topic when the issues is only with the wh .

This will continue to rumble on and on and on......

Still failing to see any real issue other then serious wb functionality but even that you can make work.

Go away with this toxic post, you have to agree, that they are unplayable, yes or yes?

[Ysaran]

Again buffing both classes is not needed , we is more than fine, its the wh that needs tuning up to the damage lvls of WE, buffing both will just sustain the unbalance between 2 supposed mirrors.

I agree, and I also think that Choppa's damage should be turned up to match Slayer's damage. Also it's unfair that only Slayer has access to Rampage, so why don't we give Rampage to Choppa

[MMXX43]

Nice ,the post turned into a we/wh topic when the issues is only with the wh .

This will continue to rumble on and on and on......

Still failing to see any real issue other then serious wb functionality but even that you can make work.

Go away with this toxic post, you have to agree, that they are unplayable, yes or yes?

WE playable , WH very occasional . I see some toxicity here , check it up