do we have a balance problem?

[TreefAM]

What best guilds, you mean Rolgrom running with AM's that can't outheal SM or Slayers for the last what, 2-3 cities in a row?

That AM can't outheal anything because its instantly deleted by 2 SH, regardless of guards, detaunts, postitions or what not. On the other hand, shamans just continue to run away in complete safety it's extremely frustrating when one side has no tools to deal with the other side's tools on multiple levels.

You know that mSH doing 5k+ burst on any SnB tanks regardless of their tankyness? I have my own screenshot of an mSH 5,4k burst on my 80+ decked out SnB knight in a matter of few seconds... which order class can do that to a deftard chosen?

I mean, nothing personal.
But you are a bad IB, idk what kinda mumbo jumbo destro wbs you die to that have 2 rsh, but man all your posts show that you, as an IB don't really know how to play it.
I won my city today against organized 18man while we were 4 + random puglords.
Itfeels like a LOT of this whining about certain classes comes from random solo puglords wanting to have spammable AOE dmg.

[kmark101]

I mean, nothing personal.
But you are a bad IB, idk what kinda mumbo jumbo destro wbs you die to that have 2 rsh, but man all your posts show that you, as an IB don't really know how to play it.
I won my city today against organized 18man while we were 4 + random puglords.
Itfeels like a LOT of this whining about certain classes comes from random solo puglords wanting to have spammable AOE dmg.

How am I a bad IB now because SH's deleting AM's? Whats the connection here? You destro players make no sense, I'm not saying "you are a bad SH" because no such thing exists as a "bad SH"

[lyncher12]

you aren't just a bad ib you are a bad player.
msh deleting shield tanks with 5k+ armor but armor is too strong? which is it?

[Rapzel]

so guys we have now filled nearly 40 sites with more or less (more less than all) helpful assumptions about is ORDER right now in a worse situation vs DESTRO. Looks like we hit here a sensitive subject to some people.

My expectations to this discussion was not to find a final answer to the question is and when yes why is ORDER now in a worser shape. But to keep a discussion up about balance even when the forum is wildy biased about own class and realm. To make it clear -DESTRO had have the same right accordingly to forts.

To take City's in compare for balance is needed and important. First of all its a WB vs WB instanced environment. As by Devs declared we dont play a solo game. So Open pvp and even Sc´s are not meaningful. Only in City's we can nearly see all classes of each realm fighting each other. Synergies between classes and ability's can be seen here preferably and why some classes are not fit the actual WB meta.

To bring my post to a end i post the last city's i was in. Nearly anything is discussable and based on own point of view. Results not. So to show it was not just a single city to DESTRO pride time with 100% win rate on 19.12 i continued to collect (i know i missed one or two).
19.12.2020

20.12.2020

21.12.2020

23.12.2020


maybe some one can provide the city 22nd of december?

so if i dont miscounted 53 instances
Desto won 41 - 77% win
Order won 12 - 23% win

If we stay with the argument "OrDeR iS jUsT To StUpId tO GrOuP uP" and "CaNt PlAy In GrOuPs" we should go back to the old Fort theard (died because no one interested in anymore after we have now every day a Altdorf in EU primetime), bring old Forts back and discuss why DESTRO is not able to siege the forts. Maybe its also just a player problem and not a ingame/balance problem.
Not sure if it is possible in this environment to discuss actual balance situation. If not i just continue to collect city's like forts got collected to show actual unbalance in realms (mind you for both sides)

https://imgur.com/o9S7WC6

Absolutions "win" against Bene.

LaSt PvE StaGE iS rEaLLy inDiCaTIvE oF rEaLm baLAnCe AnD ShOUlD bE UsEd fOR BaLAnCE.

Old fort thread died because people stopped updating forts, only the OP did it and that person quit the game or something, just like city stats stopped being recorded after 2 weeks. Destro still has some where around 50% win rate on attacks, while order is over 90%, but it's "balanced". If Order found this to be a important indicator of balance they would obviously keep recording, but they did not.

The issues that keep on being reiterated (or should I say regurgitated?) have been proven by the top guilds to be false, there have been all kinds of weird strange conspiracy theories that have been proved to not be true at all (remember when GTDC stripped you of defenses and apparently one shot SnB tanks? Turned out to not be true). Several of the "top" WB leaders and players have explicitly said that Order has access to stronger wb comps and careers, where equal players of skill and to a certain degree gear/renown Order will come out on top.

So the question is, should we balance for the top players or the bottom players?

This is why we can't have nice things. Disingenuous destro complain about fort, start recording, complain for changes and changes get made. Then omg the data is gone! Where did it go? The main OP decided to stop recording and literally all the 1000 destro complaining on the forums couldnt help take a screenshot? Bullshit. It stopped because destro started winning. The same reason why Destro ignores city data when it works against their narrative.


Super lame. Same excuses every time. If Destro does good or Order does bad it is a "learn2play issue zomg let me flame you". But if Destro does bad or Order does good it is a "Zomg this balance in this game broken, Order OP. I am the best player and doing nothing wrong so it is the games fault."

Disgusting.

Don't care what you think, can't say I main destro atm.
Yes, the majority of Order players need to learn how to play, that's from one of those filthy 6 man players. Does it apply to the majority of destro players as well? Yes.

I win on both sides, I don't care, the disingenuous people are the ones that try to make it out to be "Order bad, Destro OP".

TUP/Phalanx alliance still has circa 96% winrate from playing around 70-90 Order city instances. Most of those before Destro morales were nerfed. We lost to LOB/Exodus/Mont once (never bring 2 WHs to a city lol and only 1 RP), and maybe 2+ losses to FMJ (including absurd 300-100 kill advantage but losing stage 3 pve race, is loss, even if we had some /5 ppl in ranks because keeping full guild/alliance roster is nigh impossible on Order). Maybe some other loss I forgot about.

Think they have more losses against the LOB/Exo/Capulet alliance and I would like to add SoW into that alliance but then again think it's only LOB that's still alive out of those guilds.

Fenryls /5 groups used for sure to have very high winrates back in spring when still running and caring to city log, same with other 6man alliances of guilds merging their meleetrains for cities.

Joined fenryl before the moral nerf, think we took one stage of off Phalanx/TUP/7 with about 10ish "core" players and rest PUGs, me on the shittiest geared IB in the history of cities. If we met them on destro we would have no chance even.

Q: "do we have a balance problem?"
Yes the game will never reach perfect balance as long as its not mirrored, and thats okay!
But the biggest imballance atm. is within Order-realm between population-split on careers & archtypes.

FMJ who run good organized Destro warbands, but get still occasionally dumpstered by an actually ORGANIZED well-led, "meta" class/specs warband in cities - is more of a legitimate source for balance concerns than random order pugs complaining about losing versus Destro 8-8-8 warbands when those Order heroes queue solo into cities.
We have faced FMJ maybe ~12 times during this year in cities when we played Order - we lost maybe 2? times and won maybe +10 times?
Shouldn't that be a higher balance priority issue than the sufferings of random pug player nr9381 who refuse to get organized for cities and then complain that their 6 WHs suicide squad lost a city again?

Aurandilaz another of these disgusting x-realmers with his 5 cents.

I'll even add in Tosh, his experience in how long he has played on this server should count for something.

Balance problem? I say no. We do have problem tho of people/guilds all jumping to one side to just push a city and have prime time population 60/40 split multiple days a week. So honestly I say a “realm pride” issue not balance issue.

City stats are still being recorded, the only timezone (NA, EU, RU, AU) where Destro is sub 60% win rate is NA. The win rate has started trending apart again post SH buff.

Where is this public amazing document then? Can you tell me who won the first stage in Altdorf 1 on the 23rd?

The thread died because nobody was any longer interested in. Order not from page one and destro since we see a Altdorf every day. Order win rate in forts is just a relict of old patches between engineer buff and fort changes. I didn't played a single fort order pushed in EU primetime since 7 or 8 weeks? So %win rate can't change. For defense it's another talk. Its much easier to defend than to attack. That's why changes where made.

Several of the "top" WB leaders and players have explicitly said that Order has access to stronger wb comps and careers, where equal players of skill and to a certain degree gear/renown Order will come out on top.

If this would be true we wouldn't see a imbalance of 77%vs23% winrate and 41 pages filled about balance topic.
On one hand we have your statement. On another the the winrate on numbers.

Maybe order is on top with stronger set-up but only if you give 110% while the destro kit can be effective at 75%? What if destro is more player friendly easyer to master? What if a average order player need 100 ingame hours to master his class and 200 to be better as a average destro player while a destro player can be as good with 75 in game hours. What if your class forgive a mistake you would die in your mirror class? This makes a huge difference in balance. Just a thought...
A example to this(and I don't want to start a class discussion here) is Shammy run and detaunt tactic. Its a tactic you just put in and it's done. You don't have to think about it. Its a tactic making life easyer. Just saying...

Edit; forts where also nerfed three times in a row with lower numbers and added flyer mechanic. If you go through my previous posts one of my biggest perceived balance issues is that the last stage in city is melee ball favoured, and sure I'll agree that Destro runs more melee ball, mainly because of the reason that they have more access to melee careers and the ranged they have can't compare with orders (magi has the highest DPS potential sure, but that's theoretical and instead lacks the on demand utility engineers have, but we both know you don't bring more than one engi/magus).
You're locked down in a small room and you're supposed to fight 24 Vs 24, ranged already struggle in 6vs6 SCS where there's limits to how far you can kite, the citadell in IC is even smaller than any SC except the citadell SC, ofc there's an imbalance, just like there's an imbalance in stage 3 in forts.
How do we solve it? Well forts tried to change the rules which seems to be working some what, we will have to live with order having better win rates but w/e, fort win rate doesn't mean order needs to be nerfed to the ground, maybe the solution is in fixing the map. The same thing might be true about the LAST stage in city (which is the stage that we plebs have data from) needs to change not the other faction?

The 77 Vs 23
Read prior quotes, there's more but the search function does not work atm on the forums.
I'll ask you this question again, should we balance the game on what the best players can do, or should we balance for the people that play solo for 2 hrs on the weekend? If one side is stronger at 110% but not at 75% does that mean that the game is broken? And there's the core issue that needs to be discussed, not if mSH is OP or Slayer is OP, even though both maybe needs to be tuned down.

[kmark101]

you aren't just a bad ib you are a bad player.
msh deleting shield tanks with 5k+ armor but armor is too strong? which is it?

Expected nothing less! Everyone is a bad player/IB/AM/human being/whatever when your are challenged with numbers, same old story.
I'm not going to insult you because obviously the hard facts hurt you enough to come to the forum to whine. Also I have nfi who you are. Probably someone I smashed before.
Also, class balance between the factions has nothing to do with the armor meta and it's issues.

[Arbich]

Several of the "top" WB leaders and players have explicitly said that Order has access to stronger wb comps and careers, where equal players of skill and to a certain degree gear/renown Order will come out on top.

So the question is, should we balance for the top players or the bottom players?

Thats not the question....
If specific order comps are superior to all possible destro comps, then there is a balance problem.
If destro has a greater variety of class picks for somewhat competitive warbands than order, then there is a balance problem.

If the same is true for forts (in reverse maybe?), then there is a balance problem.

[Rapzel]

Several of the "top" WB leaders and players have explicitly said that Order has access to stronger wb comps and careers, where equal players of skill and to a certain degree gear/renown Order will come out on top.

So the question is, should we balance for the top players or the bottom players?

Thats not the question....
If specific order comps are superior to all possible destro comps, then there is a balance problem.
If destro has a greater variety of class picks for somewhat competitive warbands than order, then there is a balance problem.

If the same is true for forts (in reverse maybe?), then there is a balance problem.

That's the first question we need to answer, should the sweaty nerds that play 14 hrs a day like me (thanks people in gravords /5 WB for your salty comments we had great fun watching the vods finding your great quotes such as this) define balance or should someone who plays 2 hrs a week define what balance is? Because these are two completely different things and will address different parts of the game. Just like me and you probably see completely different issues even from a 6vs6 perspective, as you are one of the few crazy people that seriously play ranged in 6vs6.

[Dabbart]

42 pages in 10 days... Not bad. I have had another thought. To alleviate the OBVIOUS ORDER BIAS we need to add 5-8 lvl 1 Rats in IC near the SC collector. There is NO reason Order should be allowed to farm snare pots while QQing so easily. Our Gobbo brethren deserve equal ease of access to Rat carcasses!

P.S. I am still waiting for the MSH self-rezz/self-punt out of squiq armor...

[orillah]

Truth be told I joined 2 guilds after citys implementation for organised action and only played tanks on order side. After a month in each guild they both decided to abandon order and reroll destro for easy wins.

If order was a "stronger" realm there wouldn't be a problem joining good city wb's or ranked solo. Stronger/easier side always attracts more players, thats a fact.

[Rasenmeister]

Your win rate would be heavily decrease if you would face 2-3 mSH in their current iteration... trust me on this, there is no counterplay against them and they are doing wicked amounts of damage, interrupts and utilities (especially when they are champ in stage 3... then its kinda comical to watch as they one round order players one after another, without any help of any other class).

believe me - they met 2 mSH in cities and won all 3 stages

and they fought against FMJ - not pugs

If FMJ had 3-5 mSH- then FMJ would have lost with a huge score.

You seem to have never played a squig and do not know what it is.
City build mSH was nerfed after rework - and mSH lost armor buff and ,ain power strike. Now main mSH plus - mobility - and WL have absolutly same


yesterday Altdorf 1 instance
invader choppa and sovereign mSH in one party - where is OP DPS from msh?

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