do we have a balance problem?

[knick]

The 77 Vs 23
Read prior quotes, there's more but the search function does not work atm on the forums.
I'll ask you this question again, should we balance the game on what the best players can do, or should we balance for the people that play solo for 2 hrs on the weekend? If one side is stronger at 110% but not at 75% does that mean that the game is broken? And there's the core issue that needs to be discussed, not if mSH is OP or Slayer is OP, even though both maybe needs to be tuned down.

If we would play a game where you just play 1vs1 or small group matches the answer is yes - you have to balance the game around the class itself and what a good player can do with it. In Warhammer with 12 classes each side and big scale pvp is the answer no. Its team based game and a 24 Man wb can only as good as the weakest part.
What is the benefit for a realm to have the strongest class ingame but nobody can handle. Or you need to train every day to implement you best class in your wb because it is to complex.

Example to this is again Shammy and RP. As Shammy you have Auto detaunt by tactic. As RP you need experience when is the Right Moment to detaunt your enemy's. Put it in your rotation and refresh it. See it's by far more challenging than just put a tactic in. Its need time and experience to master it.
I would guess 80-85% are casual gamer. If you have "easyer" classes to master and easyer to implement in wb we have a imbalance. If a destro player who gives 75% can be as good as a order player who need 110% we have a imbalance.

And a last sentence to class balance itself. Mythic Entertainment as developer balanced the game over years even before the game got released. Classes and their strength and weaknesses are very fragile and defined by their abilitys. We and the dev team should watch out by giving abilitys careless from order to destro and other way around.

[Spellbound]

Unpopular opinion: current patch is the most balanced this server has ever been.

I wish I had some of that Kool Aid. Sounds like it does wonders.

[Panodil]

Feel like its alot of realmpride bullshit here.
If you dont play city on both sides in at least 2-2-2 wbs on coms you dont know much about balance and should not type your realmpride bullshit.
X-realm for life! Remove x-realm lockout!

[detrap]

What best guilds, you mean Rolgrom running with AM's that can't outheal SM or Slayers for the last what, 2-3 cities in a row?

That AM can't outheal anything because its instantly deleted by 2 SH, regardless of guards, detaunts, postitions or what not. On the other hand, shamans just continue to run away in complete safety it's extremely frustrating when one side has no tools to deal with the other side's tools on multiple levels.

You know that mSH doing 5k+ burst on any SnB tanks regardless of their tankyness? I have my own screenshot of an mSH 5,4k burst on my 80+ decked out SnB knight in a matter of few seconds... which order class can do that to a deftard chosen?

Msh and Rsh hit my tank for nothing, maybe wearing the wrong gear or tallies?

[emiliorv]

mSH is a pugkiller....when everyone have issues with them i assume you mostly are pugs....

But well, due to orde tears, choppa got dmg nerfed...and marauder was nerfed before. So looks logic that now all the complains have mSH as target....maybe if all the order-forum-warriors keep all this kind of whine threads finally yo get another Nerf to destro classes....

Anyways you Will continue losing in cities when mostly still solo-queue for endgame content.

[Rasenmeister]

Msh and Rsh hit my tank for nothing, maybe wearing the wrong gear or tallies?

I want see this combat log)
may be i press wrong buttons on my msh)

[Rasenmeister]

mSH is a pugkiller....when everyone have issues with them i assume you mostly are pugs....

+100500

mSH one of the best pug-grinder, who dont know about detaunt, control and interrupt abilities

[detrap]

Msh and Rsh hit my tank for nothing, maybe wearing the wrong gear or tallies?

I want see this combat log)
may be i press wrong buttons on my msh)

Haven't got logs, but running with softcap toughness and resis, vigilance for 50% less damaged, 50% block and 60% dodge. Off topic but when soloing all mdps almost kill themselves trying to gank me from all the thorn damage.

[Rapzel]

The 77 Vs 23
Read prior quotes, there's more but the search function does not work atm on the forums.
I'll ask you this question again, should we balance the game on what the best players can do, or should we balance for the people that play solo for 2 hrs on the weekend? If one side is stronger at 110% but not at 75% does that mean that the game is broken? And there's the core issue that needs to be discussed, not if mSH is OP or Slayer is OP, even though both maybe needs to be tuned down.

If we would play a game where you just play 1vs1 or small group matches the answer is yes - you have to balance the game around the class itself and what a good player can do with it. In Warhammer with 12 classes each side and big scale pvp is the answer no. Its team based game and a 24 Man wb can only as good as the weakest part.
What is the benefit for a realm to have the strongest class ingame but nobody can handle. Or you need to train every day to implement you best class in your wb because it is to complex.

Example to this is again Shammy and RP. As Shammy you have Auto detaunt by tactic. As RP you need experience when is the Right Moment to detaunt your enemy's. Put it in your rotation and refresh it. See it's by far more challenging than just put a tactic in. Its need time and experience to master it.
I would guess 80-85% are casual gamer. If you have "easyer" classes to master and easyer to implement in wb we have a imbalance. If a destro player who gives 75% can be as good as a order player who need 110% we have a imbalance.

And a last sentence to class balance itself. Mythic Entertainment as developer balanced the game over years even before the game got released. Classes and their strength and weaknesses are very fragile and defined by their abilitys. We and the dev team should watch out by giving abilitys careless from order to destro and other way around.

Going from bot to top.

Mythic doesn't exist anymore, and haven't had any influence over this server what so ever. Whatever mythic has to do with balance is irrelevant. Are we going to bring up how climax started developing WAR in 2002 as well and how they tried to balance the game as well?
Things change, a lot of this game is better now than it ever was on live. And tbh "mythic" released renown rank 100 and hidden levels as a pay to win expansion for the game, that was not balanced.

No, I'll reiterate here for you.
If bad Order pug WB plays against bad WB, Destro win. If good order WB plays against good Destro WB, Order wins. Who should we balance the game for?
Bad people who struggle with the fundamentals of the game such as position, keeping HoTs timed, guard swaps and assisting or should we balance the game for the players that have figured that out?
Some guilds/alliances believe it or not win on both factions.

First of all have you tried playing RP with 3 tactics? Shaman gives up a tactic slot for the detaunt, and it needs to procc, dwarf armor tactic is probably a better damage mitigation in the long run than auto detaunt.
Second of all why are you even trying to compare RP and Shaman? They have very little in common and gives you zero credibility. Are we going to compare Black Orc and KotBS because they both have guard?
So the reason why Order loses city is because they don't have access to auto-detaunt, is that what you're trying to say? It's highly unclear what you're trying to convey.

The issue is that someone will train every day to become the best, so if we start balancing the game around the casuals this will have greater effects on the highest tier of game play as well as the lowest tier of gameplay. Going from the top down, balance will instead hopefully trickle down.

[Ramlaen]

The 77 Vs 23
Read prior quotes, there's more but the search function does not work atm on the forums.
I'll ask you this question again, should we balance the game on what the best players can do, or should we balance for the people that play solo for 2 hrs on the weekend? If one side is stronger at 110% but not at 75% does that mean that the game is broken? And there's the core issue that needs to be discussed, not if mSH is OP or Slayer is OP, even though both maybe needs to be tuned down.

If we would play a game where you just play 1vs1 or small group matches the answer is yes - you have to balance the game around the class itself and what a good player can do with it. In Warhammer with 12 classes each side and big scale pvp is the answer no. Its team based game and a 24 Man wb can only as good as the weakest part.
What is the benefit for a realm to have the strongest class ingame but nobody can handle. Or you need to train every day to implement you best class in your wb because it is to complex.

Example to this is again Shammy and RP. As Shammy you have Auto detaunt by tactic. As RP you need experience when is the Right Moment to detaunt your enemy's. Put it in your rotation and refresh it. See it's by far more challenging than just put a tactic in. Its need time and experience to master it.
I would guess 80-85% are casual gamer. If you have "easyer" classes to master and easyer to implement in wb we have a imbalance. If a destro player who gives 75% can be as good as a order player who need 110% we have a imbalance.

And a last sentence to class balance itself. Mythic Entertainment as developer balanced the game over years even before the game got released. Classes and their strength and weaknesses are very fragile and defined by their abilitys. We and the dev team should watch out by giving abilitys careless from order to destro and other way around.

Going from bot to top.

Mythic doesn't exist anymore, and haven't had any influence over this server what so ever. Whatever mythic has to do with balance is irrelevant. Are we going to bring up how climax started developing WAR in 2002 as well and how they tried to balance the game as well?
Things change, a lot of this game is better now than it ever was on live. And tbh "mythic" released renown rank 100 and hidden levels as a pay to win expansion for the game, that was not balanced.

No, I'll reiterate here for you.
If bad Order pug WB plays against bad WB, Destro win. If good order WB plays against good Destro WB, Order wins. Who should we balance the game for?
Bad people who struggle with the fundamentals of the game such as position, keeping HoTs timed, guard swaps and assisting or should we balance the game for the players that have figured that out?
Some guilds/alliances believe it or not win on both factions.

First of all have you tried playing RP with 3 tactics? Shaman gives up a tactic slot for the detaunt, and it needs to procc, dwarf armor tactic is probably a better damage mitigation in the long run than auto detaunt.
Second of all why are you even trying to compare RP and Shaman? They have very little in common and gives you zero credibility. Are we going to compare Black Orc and KotBS because they both have guard?
So the reason why Order loses city is because they don't have access to auto-detaunt, is that what you're trying to say? It's highly unclear what you're trying to convey.

The issue is that someone will train every day to become the best, so if we start balancing the game around the casuals this will have greater effects on the highest tier of game play as well as the lowest tier of gameplay. Going from the top down, balance will instead hopefully trickle down.

The RP/Sham comparison is flawed anyway because Run Away is the survivability tool that makes Sham slippery, not the auto detaunt.