do we have a balance problem?

[dirnsterer]

Dude, please stop being ridiculous. I did not say that I know everything, I just pointed that your view of causes of city winrates is a) lacks body of evidence and b) is oversimplification of nuanced subject and is plainly wrong, since my personal anecdote is total opposite of yours. Either present better arguments or abstain from discussion.

So, there is no evidence of order lack of organization causing losses. And then there is no evidence of balance problems causing any losses either. Done. No organization problems, and no balance problems. It is a deal.

You are clearly an interesting specimen

It is bit over simplified. But, I asked you for evidence on the balance problems you so vehemently say there are. But you give me nothing.

[teiloh]

There is somesort of underlying problem with order other than balance issues. Had city today on order side, both sides pugs, destro, order. Low on tanks, otherwise seemed good. Destro has a good few unguarded targets too. We plunder the first engagement, and guess what happens. Order just gives up, people start going all over the place, afking. One wipe, with rather decent looking setup too. Like completely spineless. I would understand after maybe five tries people would give up when it is pug vs pug and the setups look kinda similiar. But after first? Like come on.

That definitely happens on both sides

[Wdova]

As far as I know destro always try to form 12,18,24 man with 2/2/2 high rank gear setups and nearly every time coordinated via discord. This works much better than random warbands without voice comunication.
It also depends what side big premade guilds like PnP or FMJ play on. In EU prime time if there are cities hapening, its not that much one sided because guilds like Radiant Knights, Rescue team or others can stomp any destro random 2/2/2 wbs, but destro win rate is still higher.

[Sundowner]

So, there is no evidence of order lack of organization causing losses. And then there is no evidence of balance problems causing any losses either. Done. No organization problems, and no balance problems. It is a deal.

You are clearly an interesting specimen

It is bit over simplified. But, I asked you for evidence on the balance problems you so vehemently say there are. But you give me nothing.

Oh, I thought you asked me to record all my cities and present evidence, but if you want balance, here you go: (please note not only this contributes to city winrates now):

Destro has better and more cd decreasers.
Mara has roughly the same dmg as WL, but has much more utility with aoe KD and debuffs.
aoe SH>aoe SW
Destro has better CC tools
Destro has more options for optimal WB composition and more self-reliant classes

If you want deeper dive into this, you can go back and reread some responses to this topic

[dirnsterer]

You are clearly an interesting specimen

It is bit over simplified. But, I asked you for evidence on the balance problems you so vehemently say there are. But you give me nothing.

Oh, I thought you asked me to record all my cities and present evidence, but if you want balance, here you go: (please note not only this contributes to city winrates now):

Destro has better and more cd decreasers.
Mara has roughly the same dmg as WL, but has much more utility with aoe KD and debuffs.
aoe SH>aoe SW
Destro has better CC tools
Destro has more options for optimal WB composition and more self-reliant classes

If you want deeper dive into this, you can go back and reread some responses to this topic

That is not much of evidence to me, you just say those might be the balance problems. Where is the proper data on this?

[Sundowner]

It is bit over simplified. But, I asked you for evidence on the balance problems you so vehemently say there are. But you give me nothing.

Oh, I thought you asked me to record all my cities and present evidence, but if you want balance, here you go: (please note not only this contributes to city winrates now):

Destro has better and more cd decreasers.
Mara has roughly the same dmg as WL, but has much more utility with aoe KD and debuffs.
aoe SH>aoe SW
Destro has better CC tools
Destro has more options for optimal WB composition and more self-reliant classes

If you want deeper dive into this, you can go back and reread some responses to this topic

That is not much of evidence to me, you just say those might be the balance problems. Where is the proper data on this?

Sure, here take a look at data gathered

Spoiler:

Stop being a Joke

[hammerhead]

I wonder if your city instances looked anything like this?

Spoiler:

I was there today with this pug and I was booked out immediately as soon as I saw that the next premade. I don't need a bag in exchange for wasted time, and that's not why I go to city just to put on another toon. By the way, I like the city and unlike the desperate order that has long considered the city "a necessary evil", I consider it to be another layer of game activity just different from rvr and scenarios and quite good. But what you see here, my beloved Wargrimnir, is not a cause but a consequence of your experiments with classes.
I do not know what the current class design concept is, because the devs, through your own mouth, stated that there is no goal. And this is a direct result when there is no goal. I would be happy to play 100% and not try my luck, but for this I need to go to the Destru side and be part of one of the 4 large dominant guilds that only occasionally go behind the Order and show really good game which you take as proof that the class balance there. And the direct answer to this topic is precisely why almost all strong players are gathered on one side and they can organize a pug and gather stronc warbands around them.
I would like the order to have the same critical mass of players from which it was possible to make those same 2/2/2, but since everything suits everyone, I see no reason to even strain how much. We say one in the field is not a warrior.
By the way, I didn't find it right away, but I have an opposite screen with 6 shamans, 4 witches and stuff like that against our premeid. It's just that it is an exception for destru, for an order it has almost become a regrettable routine.

a couple of days before these events, luck smiled and I was in 2nd for kill.

Spoiler:

[Sundowner]

But what you see here, my beloved Wargrimnir, is not a cause but a consequence of your experiments with classes.
I do not know what the current class design concept is, because the devs, through your own mouth, stated that there is no goal. And this is a direct result when there is no goal.

This clearly needs more attention. I think viability of classes, clear class identities, self-reliance and fun aspect, along with balance of course, should be main goal if we want to have good impact on the city winrates, hence the quality of cities as endgame content. Because 70% constant winrate for one faction is not healthy for anything.

[wonshot]

I wonder if your city instances looked anything like this?

Spoiler:

I was there today with this pug and I was booked out immediately as soon as I saw that the next premade.

Well since this is a screenshot i originally posted earlier this morning on ror discord, I guess i can go in and comfirm this was a pure 100% soloqueue situation of how order and destro archtype balance looks like in the extreme cases. On destro we chatted about how unreal it was that we had close to a perfect 2-2-2 pug comp, one dok was dps so maybe it was actually 8-8-8 but after order gave up i asked in the scenario chat if anyone was queueing as a 12man, 6man or even a duo queue. to all the responses i got an "im here solo" from atleast 10 of the people who bothered replying. Since order didnt come out after two wipes i took the time to check the guildtags of all of destro(only two had the same guildtag out of the 24 and that was not a guild i associate with tryhard premades), and with a little personal knowledge of what guilds are in alliance i would say it was fairly confirmed that this was a pure 24x1 destro solo queue with random perfect balance between the archtypes.

and i posted it on the discord because i do believe no matter what is done from a developer standpoint this issue is within the Order realm. And if we ask ourselves why people dont play knight and warriorpriest for example, its not exactly because the classes are bad or underperforming..

tl:dr order had a random pug instance with zero tanks and two AM healers rest were solohero dps. On destro they won the jackpot and had a perfect 8-8-8 archtype split and everyone were soloQ

[hammerhead]

I wonder if your city instances looked anything like this?

Spoiler:

I was there today with this pug and I was booked out immediately as soon as I saw that the next premade.

Well since this is a screenshot i originally posted earlier this morning on ror discord, I guess i can go in and comfirm this was a pure 100% soloqueue situation of how order and destro archtype balance looks like in the extreme cases. On destro we chatted about how unreal it was that we had close to a perfect 2-2-2 pug comp, one dok was dps so maybe it was actually 8-8-8 but after order gave up i asked in the scenario chat if anyone was queueing as a 12man, 6man or even a duo queue. to all the responses i got an "im here solo" from atleast 10 of the people who bothered replying. Since order didnt come out after two wipes i took the time to check the guildtags of all of destro(only two had the same guildtag out of the 24 and that was not a guild i associate with tryhard premades), and with a little personal knowledge of what guilds are in alliance i would say it was fairly confirmed that this was a pure 24x1 destro solo queue with random perfect balance between the archtypes.

and i posted it on the discord because i do believe no matter what is done from a developer standpoint this issue is within the Order realm. And if we ask ourselves why people dont play knight and warriorpriest for example, its not exactly because the classes are bad or underperforming..

tl:dr order had a random pug instance with zero tanks and two AM healers rest were solohero dps. On destro they won the jackpot and had a perfect 8-8-8 archtype split and everyone were soloQ

In this case, everything is worse because this is direct evidence that people do not want to play these classes for nothing in the world.
Well, I have two 80 tanks and almost 80 runprists. Before leaving the scenario, I saw that someone had thrown into the chat that all of you should level one tank and one healer.
And I could start a long discussion why, for example, I do not play my SM in 2H, and destro players really love their Borks in brute mode. Or why and for what destro loving their Zealots, and RP has one role in all activities. Or why we lost a huge share of alpha tanks, when it suddenly turned out that Kobs was killing 1 on 1 WE without any problems and this goes beyond a certain general line. Or forgotten by all IB who threw a handout in the form of one tactic because he is not bad at 6v6, ignoring the fact that this is the second most playable tank in the order. Well, further down the list...
What happened recently? Another nerf of a Lion that was already smoother than even without it. Mirroring another unique ability for a class that even without it kills all living things that fall under the target in one person. New meta shaman + squig that paralyze the entire rvr because they don't have counter games at all.
The city is part of the game, but unfortunately the indicator is largely of the design of all activities.