On Cities Starvation, Population Disparity and Classes Balance

[Onigokko0101]

Also, playing BG I can tell you that BG too can't take all what it needs even with sov +2 mastery point. actually the situation is even worse for Bg, since its most powerful tactic/skill are higher in the trees than IB

Ignoring the rest of the thread.
But what exactly are you missing. Or do you mean getting both parry tactic and healdebuff at the same time while being 2h?

Yeah you need Crimson Death, Knockdown and Enraged Beating from left tree, and parry from mid tree, which leaves no room for heal debuff tactic so you take wave of scorn. This is pretty much your +2 build: https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... 913,920&t=

[Wiede]

lol, its 3 buffs with no damage. only one is core. plz don't talk about things you don't know.

10% crit/str
25% parry/ini
WS/ap-reg
HP-reg
corp-resi/AS-buff
magic-bubble
snare-removal

This plus the obligatory challenge, guard and oathfriend... But let's pretend we don't count these, we have 7buffs here.

Just to clarify, who talks about things...

Why these no-dd buffs can't bei off-gcd? Would be so much more satisfying to play with.

Why nearly all mechanics need such a counterintuitive gamemechanic? E.g. im hitting my enemy and i want to hit it faster... BG: crit it, IB: wait for the grace of someone hit you. E.g. i want to hit stuff with grudge/hate... BG: Hit things more, oh and when you crit things, here, more hate... IB: Here, just wait to be hit; oh, people not dumb enough to hit a tank? **** happens... And there's nothing to do about.

It's just... Boring to play IB in comparison to BG. No real proactive play possible... And thats why people dont play these classes. It's not about numbers, it's the whole boring mechanics of IB and SM that need a rework.

[TreefAM]

Also, playing BG I can tell you that BG too can't take all what it needs even with sov +2 mastery point. actually the situation is even worse for Bg, since its most powerful tactic/skill are higher in the trees than IB

Ignoring the rest of the thread.
But what exactly are you missing. Or do you mean getting both parry tactic and healdebuff at the same time while being 2h?

Yeah you need Crimson Death, Knockdown and Enraged Beating from left tree, and parry from mid tree, which leaves no room for heal debuff tactic so you take wave of scorn. This is pretty much your +2 build: https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... 913,920&t=

Yeah, but since you can't actually reach anything with +2, no reason to gimp yourself with 6warlord.

[Onigokko0101]

Ignoring the rest of the thread.
But what exactly are you missing. Or do you mean getting both parry tactic and healdebuff at the same time while being 2h?

Yeah you need Crimson Death, Knockdown and Enraged Beating from left tree, and parry from mid tree, which leaves no room for heal debuff tactic so you take wave of scorn. This is pretty much your +2 build: https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... 913,920&t=

Yeah, but since you can't actually reach anything with +2, no reason to gimp yourself with 6warlord.

Exactly. You are better off running 5 OffSov/3WL (The balanced regen spec) or 4/4 for high DPS.

[Ysaran]

lol, its 3 buffs with no damage. only one is core. plz don't talk about things you don't know.

10% crit/str
25% parry/ini
WS/ap-reg
HP-reg
corp-resi/AS-buff
magic-bubble
snare-removal

This plus the obligatory challenge, guard and oathfriend... But let's pretend we don't count these, we have 7buffs here.

Just to clarify, who talks about things...

Why these no-dd buffs can't bei off-gcd? Would be so much more satisfying to play with.

Why nearly all mechanics need such a counterintuitive gamemechanic? E.g. im hitting my enemy and i want to hit it faster... BG: crit it, IB: wait for the grace of someone hit you. E.g. i want to hit stuff with grudge/hate... BG: Hit things more, oh and when you crit things, here, more hate... IB: Here, just wait to be hit; oh, people not dumb enough to hit a tank? **** happens... And there's nothing to do about.

It's just... Boring to play IB in comparison to BG. No real proactive play possible... And thats why people dont play these classes. It's not about numbers, it's the whole boring mechanics of IB and SM that need a rework.

I wouldn't count HP-regen, Anti-snare, absorb, challenge, guard and oath friend as buffs since they don't increase stats. And since we are comparing IB and BG: BG's HP-regen, Anti-snare, absorb, challenge, guard and oath friend.
Anyway, i don't get what is counterintuive. BO and SM have the same class mechanics AFAIK, and i never saw anyone claiming that BO is counterintuitive.
About BG and IB, they have opposite role: IB gain his class mechanics in a passive/defensive way (being hitted and avoinding attack, if you are using Dwarven riposte) while BG gain his class mechanics in an active/offensive way.
This doesn't mean BG deals more damage, actually IB has more DoTs exactly to compensate the presence of no-dd buffs. If you are in melee range, just fire Heavy Blow before buffing your oath friend. Also, I like that my IB can be usefull even not having a melee target (isn't this the main complaint about SM's WW?), while on BG most of your buff require you to hit someone.
I just don't see what's boring in IB. I've also played BO a bit (rr50-ish) but the reason i stopped playing it is that i feel the absence of the punt, no problem with the class mechanics. On Chosen/Kotbs i agree thay can be pretty boring.

P.S. I also think that IB needs a bit of love. The latest change on guard avoidence has been a huge nerf on Dwarven Riposte, and now not being in melee range can be pretty bad for IB, even thought Bg suffer of the same problem. Increasing the duration of Ancestral Fury, Oathbound and Runic Shield,a s proposed by Earthcake, would be another QoL change. Not a huge buff, but would make the class a bit more noob friendly

[Wiede]

It's not about IB or SM being weak in tooltip-numbers, it's just they're boring to play cause there aren't many "hell-jeah" mechanics.
Their mechanics are similar, but while BO and BG have gotten a lot of balance and qol-changes including whole tree reworks, order tanks got nothing except a few half hearted tweaks here and there that sometimes even slaughtered whole mechanics (SM)...
And here we are wondering why order has no melees...

And again: it's not about buffing order tanks. It's about making them feeling impactful and fun to play.
Standing around and buffing every 10s (IB) for multiple gcds doesnt feel good. Not beeing able to use key mechanics and skills in a fight while beeing kited (SM buffs) or ignored (IB grudge) doesnt feel good. Let's change that!

[Ysaran]

It's not about IB or SM being weak in tooltip-numbers, it's just they're boring to play cause there aren't many "hell-jeah" mechanics.
Their mechanics are similar, but while BO and BG have gotten a lot of balance and qol-changes including whole tree reworks, order tanks got nothing except a few half hearted tweaks here and there that sometimes even slaughtered whole mechanics (SM)...
And here we are wondering why order has no melees...

And again: it's not about buffing order tanks. It's about making them feeling impactful and fun to play.
Standing around and buffing every 10s (IB) for multiple gcds doesnt feel good. Not beeing able to use key mechanics and skills in a fight while beeing kited (SM buffs) or ignored (IB grudge) doesnt feel good. Let's change that!

I get your point but I'm not sure you are right. On one hand it's like saying: "I don't like Slayer mechanics because it make my die and that's bad, so Devs should change the mechanics to make the class less frustrating", but on the other hand if no one play a class maybe there are reasons. I like the IB mechanics, but maybe it's just me. I alway thought that if you don't like the class mechanics you should simply change class, but I'm not sure anymore. Dunno really, seems' quite a dilemma.

P.S. Still I don't get the difference between BO and SM mechanics, hope someone can enlight me. I mean, why is BO=fun and SM=boring, what's the difference?

[Charon]

well, IB it's the king of smallscale. Also, SM is extremely strong. Its damage output is incredible and can really make the differences in SCs, specially in Ranked

About SM i need to disapoint you mate - it does not work this way especialy in rs.

Well, that was my experience. I don't play SM and I have abandoned my BO (don't like the class mechanics) long time ago, so I will not debate your assertion. Still, the presence of a SM in party has make the difference for us in many situation.

i think we miss the point a bit ... I like my sm i still think its most fun among all order tanks because its very active play style. - But in fact dmg that was a strongest point of sm in the past is not more a factor especially in competitive play ... In (for example) rs your dmg will not be significantly better than off spec 2h chosen or bg or BO/IB (if they a properly chose targets) .. Whats more it will not be a decisive factor in victory bc sm hits generally all targets in the same way (hard but not hard enough)... its rather mobility (nerfed a cross the board lately)..cc ..debuffs ...cleanses... in which other 2h tanks are better.

[Ysaran]

About SM i need to disapoint you mate - it does not work this way especialy in rs.

Well, that was my experience. I don't play SM and I have abandoned my BO (don't like the class mechanics) long time ago, so I will not debate your assertion. Still, the presence of a SM in party has make the difference for us in many situation.

i think we miss the point a bit ... I like my sm i still think its most fun among all order tanks because its very active play style. - But in fact dmg that was a strongest point of sm in the past is not more a factor especially in competitive play ... In (for example) rs your dmg will not be significantly better than off spec 2h chosen or bg or BO/IB (if they a properly chose targets) .. Whats more it will not be a decisive factor in victory bc sm hits generally all targets in the same way (hard but not hard enough)... its rather mobility (nerfed a cross the board lately)..cc ..debuffs ...cleanses... in which other 2h tanks are better.

I believe yours words, do you (you as "SM players community", not you as yourself) have wrote some proposal about it? I ask because I saw many complaints/proposal on IB and Kotbs, but I can't remember anything about SM. Except for some WW complaints

[P00D3l1v3ry]

Point from one from the other side:

I play DPS ( Choppa/rSH ) and overal what ive seen:

Order likes to play mainly rDPS which is great when defending ( Keeps/forts/stationary points with narrow entrances ) - you guys melt us there heavily.

Order tanks, namely KoTBS as for shield wall - No 1 tank if played really as shield wall, not as DPS ( I would call out here Fujisaki - even thou he might be already beyond the point of improvement, he can survive a hell of a beating. His dmg is almost none, but having him as your standart bearer and leader of charge, you are sure that he will be your last man standing )

As for defence, Order is well made ( which is well seen when destro attacks fort with order 40% AAO and fails miserably coz Order does funnel and just focuses us down )

As for offence, thats the low point of Order IMHO. It was seen today at Tala, Barak varr and Avelorn. Mainly in Tala. Destro locked up entry to order keep from Order warcamp while party was breakin door. Order numbers were at that moment only 20% AAO but since some guys were locked in breakin doors, Order had number advantage, but still could not break in until Destro broke inner and therefore had to relocate into keep.

When destro got to keep, they have put again defensive block to bottom. Also as in previous situation, Destro numbers of people focused in defense of bottom were lower due to people tryin to kill the boss, but main advantage was on Destro, coz we were inside, therefore denying Order to focus their RDPS on our squishies.

But i must give credit to Order tanks and MDPS which managed to break in and kept trying, you guys were in terrible position but almost made it in and created the foothold for your shooters to set their position, but Destro recovered pretty quickly.