[Zarbix] Talking about class balance

[sighy]

Spoiler:

Which realm exactly do you want help with such argument ??? Havent you palyed with cd reduction buff ??? especialy waagh ...chop fasta combo

[mSH petless city build only post]
So what is the complaint here about aoe city mSH (without pet)? That the class is not really a burst nor consistant aoe dps role before it has one of the Orcs in the party to feed it cooldown reduction? The video is a pretty good example of how it looks in best case scenario when it has close to full uptime. but I also see no attempts on shutting down the mSH. No taunts, no focus snares to keep a rDPS archtype with no snarebreakers in place. It is a 2-3player combo getting free reign and then it should have high impact, just on that principle alone right?

Dont get me wrong, i think mSH is getting too much tankiness for free for building classcanon and it has low risk gameplay from that + "get out of jail" freecards.
Example: Whole last patch the Squigarmor didnt stack with armorpotion and there was no outcry about it from msh because half of them didnt even notice. if any other class suddenly didnt feel their armorpotion working im sure there would be tears
But the counterplay for shutting a greenskin CDD-comboed AoeMeatball down is very much there. Champchallenge takes the get out of jail freecards away, same with Knight No Escape making them stand there for full duration, Aoe interrupting a Meatball stack makes them deal close to zero criticalmass so SM becomes close to a hardcounter to MSH comps. And honestly with how silly easy a meatball is to spot, every tank in a city instance should be able to land atleast 1-2 taunts to interrupt a meatball during each fight imho.

Suggestion: If people really think MSH is too hard to shut down i say slap a 10% increase on the total Big Bouncing channel on the ability, but make it ramp up the longer you succesfully channel. That rewards good timing of using the ability, and interrupting it. Makes the build a little less braindead.
I started gearing mine to see what the fuss was about, same as i did with my choppa a year ago when orderlings complained about invader choppas. playing these classes gives a good firsthand experience to see how strong the **** is, and how potent the counterplay is.

Thx Bombling ....now we are talking closer to the reality ...free card jail break with glass canon mode ..its the issue i want to underline. Powerhouse of waagh + chop fasta combo ... yes sure... this is exact reason of my complaining behaviour at this forum.

and about this vod

Conterplay ....Do you remember (we were playing together..right) how badly you were complaining about how destro is able to shutdown your BW.. Yes it was fully legit tactic ..but destro has much more and better tools to do that..(msh is one of them). Just compare amount and quality/access of interrupts/cc at order vs destro.

To do exactly the same interrupt combo (we were trying that tactic right) that you are suggesting, order wb need to have at least 4-6 SM-s in WB (and take into consideration CA limits), But, I don't know why, order hates Sm-s (all order is a bit like BT roleplay pack) and numbers of this tank is really low......(thx to proving their generall mistake). Of course to some extend this number can be balanced by wl-s .. with their 15-ft interrupt. But wait.... even Wl is those days very limited resource. So you know access to this kind wb tools can be not so easy to get.

Whats is more.
Ok, you can put all tanks in wb focus to taunt interrupt this 1 selected target and what do you will achieve ... Nothing special because msh can start his BB over and over again ..or just disengage or use instant casts. Other tools ChCh... No Escape ...you need to reach them, have them, survive to this moment, sacrifice other tools...Its possible but sometimes hard to get..much harder than to get good morale at destro. At the end ...all those resources you gonna spend to shut down 1 target. But, there is still additional 7 destro dps to deal with.... what with them. In most common situation is like Xerg said, he was still killing ppl but just Leakypants did more dmg.

AND NOW conclusions... like always at order. To counter this way ad hoc (xerg pt is not near maximum of efectivenes) composed destro warband you need specialised conterplay and much more strictly created group. tactic, execution, skill. Do you see limitation here...especially in alts era... its general difference between realms .. and it gives destruction strategical offensive advantage at least at most common mid level of play. That's all.... but generally snowballing long turn effect in population is visible ..even you are playing at destro now.... right.

What about engis? Sure you can't really stack them, but Order has a lot and their interrupt is aoe, ranged and targetted, on 10s base cd.

[Brutinho]

Spoiler:

I disagree with the part "ranges must understand that they are support and not main DPS (except sorc and be) ", precisely because of what you say just before "Range play without risk , lot of tools , cc , etc...".

A DPS can be either main range DPS or support DPS, however, for the sake of promoting team play and realm play you MUST NOT combine great damage + great survival + great CC. BW & Sorcerer are in this spot: if they continue to deal high damage, they shot themselves. If a SW focuses on support and/or survival, the DPS is really mehhhh.

And this is why MMORPG RVR fostering the holy trinity are so popular, they make synergetic teams outperforming significantly individuals/solo/pick up groups.

I don't mind that rSH has that much burst damage and mobility, but it has to give up significantly the CC. Or abandon mobility for much less CC, etc.

Another way to balance it is to provide natural predators, in a rock-paper-scissor system, like it sort of used to be in the Age of Reckoning. WL Nerf/damaging tree lines is a consequence of more SH running in the lakes. Give them back their original pounce and they will "Thin the herd".

Similarly, I am more in favor of removing the short-range pounce to the WE and giving it to the Marauder. This way you have:
- WL -[is predator of]-> SH
- Marauder -[is predator of] -> SW
WE and WH are predators of (almost) everything anyway .

Cheers

You are probably living in another world but SW has better burst than SH both in both Ranged and Melee builds. The only CC tools SW lacked compared to SH were AoE knock back and run away tactic and they were both nerfed to ground anyway. However most people are not even aware that SW has one of the best escape tools moral 1 cleanse and AP boost. Anyone who plays on both sides would notice that with the recent range changes it is harder to kill a SW than a ranged SH ( that's ofc if one knows how to play and use range advantage). Can anyone see a RSH performing well in 6vs6? The usual Destro nerf crusade group can cry rivers here if they like but it is obvious the same people parrot the same weak and unsupported arguments under different threads. No combat logs, no videos, nothing. But yeah SH is overturned in your minds. And we believe you...

Are you trolling or are you serious?

Depends on what he is referring to:
Range burst: only if he is talking about Big Shootin' vs Scout SW beats SH. Skirmish vs Quick shootin', SH beats SW
Escape tools: Nope, SH is a bit better
Melee burst: Pre git em nerf, they were fairly close SH had the advantage, but not by that much. Post nerf ASW has way better ST burst

Obviously I am not considering squigbeast as it is way overperfroming for a M1.

[wonshot]

..even you are playing at destro now.... right.

Yeah while im in transitioning of moving house, im trying to citylog to have a "geared" class on both realms in case i ever need it on destro. Just like ive done in the past i want to see for myself firsthand how these FOTM abilities work. And I am honestly telling you, if you have played on a MSH and you get interrupted very early in your channel, even if you have a cooldown reduser you still deal very little criticalmass to the point of questioning if you are even a damagedealer.
8sec cooldown, if you get interrupted within the first 1-2 seconds you have to wait in what feels like an eternaty before you can do the next Bigbouncing, and that one can get interrupted too.

Yeah I agree it takes a couple of people to prevent (i wouldnt call it shutdown) a MSH of playing freely, but we have to remember that the SH takes several players to get "online" aswel with the cooldown reducers. Yes it is just a click on an ability, and that might be somewhat of the core issue. But it still requires you to have the Orcs with you, and not pressing your BB before you get the buff or you have to wait 8sec if you used BB before the orcs press their CDD and you waste some of the uptime.

The thing about MSH is that it has very little filler when the BB and other aoe cooldowns are not available.
In my conclusion so far the class is too tanky for free, is very cooldown reliant, a littly to slippery, but has a lovely tradeoff compared to my BW in damageoutup vs mobility/tankiness/utility/cc, and is overall just a more enjoyable class, way easier to be average on. And it saddens me that how one(!) mastery tree alone can feel so much better than a full career combined.

AoeBrightwizard imo:
Mobility rating: 4/10 (focused mind and selfclense snares)
Utility rating: 4/10 (morale pump/drain)
CC rating: 3/10 (aoe root, aoe ranged silence, mastery aoe knockback)
Damage rating: 10/10 (damage procs to bypass some mitigating, morale damage procs, funnelpower to bypass mitigation, strong mechanic stacking with bonuses)

CitySquigherder imo:
Mobility rating: 7/10 (pounce, selfpunt, 70%charge) [speedup with petbuild]
Utility rating: 6/10 (group Selfpump, M1 against all ranged for 7sec, pierce defence tactic)
CC rating: 9/10 (Mini channeled punt with no immunity, biggest aoe punt in the game, baseline singletarget knockdown, 90%uptime singletaret baseline snare, aoe pbaoe snare on selfpunt, frontal cooldown increaser, M2 ranged aoe snare)
Damage rating: 6/10 (cooldown reliant and morale bomb semi nerfed)

But thats just my view and how i value some things in the game, others might disagree.

[Brutinho]

..even you are playing at destro now.... right.

Yeah while im in transitioning of moving house, im trying to citylog to have a "geared" class on both realms in case i ever need it on destro. Just like ive done in the past i want to see for myself firsthand how these FOTM abilities work. And I am honestly telling you, if you have played on a MSH and you get interrupted very early in your channel, even if you have a cooldown reduser you still deal very little criticalmass to the point of questioning if you are even a damagedealer.
8sec cooldown, if you get interrupted within the first 1-2 seconds you have to wait in what feels like an eternaty before you can do the next Bigbouncing, and that one can get interrupted too.

Yeah I agree it takes a couple of people to prevent (i wouldnt call it shutdown) a MSH of playing freely, but we have to remember that the SH takes several players to get "online" aswel with the cooldown reducers. Yes it is just a click on an ability, and that might be somewhat of the core issue. But it still requires you to have the Orcs with you, and not pressing your BB before you get the buff or you have to wait 8sec if you used BB before the orcs press their CDD and you waste some of the uptime.

The thing about MSH is that it has very little filler when the BB and other aoe cooldowns are not available.
In my conclusion so far the class is too tanky for free, is very cooldown reliant, a littly to slippery, but has a lovely tradeoff compared to my BW in damageoutup vs mobility/tankiness/utility/cc, and is overall just a more enjoyable class, way easier to be average on. And it saddens me that how one(!) mastery tree alone can feel so much better than a full career combined.

AoeBrightwizard imo:
Mobility rating: 4/10 (focused mind and selfclense snares)
Utility rating: 4/10 (morale pump/drain)
CC rating: 3/10 (aoe root, aoe ranged silence, mastery aoe knockback)
Damage rating: 10/10 (damage procs to bypass some mitigating, morale damage procs, funnelpower to bypass mitigation, strong mechanic stacking with bonuses)

CitySquigherder imo:
Mobility rating: 7/10 (pounce, selfpunt, 70%charge) [speedup with petbuild]
Utility rating: 6/10 (group Selfpump, M1 against all ranged for 7sec, pierce defence tactic)
CC rating: 9/10 (Mini channeled punt with no immunity, biggest aoe punt in the game, baseline singletarget knockdown, 90%uptime singletaret baseline snare, aoe pbaoe snare on selfpunt, frontal cooldown increaser, M2 ranged aoe snare)
Damage rating: 6/10 (cooldown reliant and morale bomb semi nerfed)

But thats just my view and how i value some things in the game, others might disagree.

Super small details to correct:
- Unless they reverted it, big claw is a 5sec duration and 9sec CD
- Last time I went melee (about a month ago) out of my way was giving immunities, but I will verify tonight and record it just in case.

Sidenote: I think that skill should be gone and they should make the KD specable at 13p and probably move tastes like stunties to 15p (or vise versa)

[teiloh]

Squig frenzy + M1. No guard on...
Kill the pet next time. Destro already knows the drill when it comes to lions. Dont worry, you will get used to it

Someone doesn't realize that if you Heel the squig pet, if whips back to your side instantly and no further damage is possible unless you regain los/range

[lyncher12]

I really don't get the MSH complaints. If you are a knight not only can you interrupt their bounce but you can very easily shatter Chop Fasta.

[Avelinna]

Everybody knows SH has been overbuffed to ridiculous proportions. Population will drop there will less order to kill when switch or leave. A lot of these changes need to be removed to restore some kind of balance the game is becoming very onesided with over buffing of classes and the xrealmers. I worry about the long term effect of these changes cant be good for the game.

[Vri]

Everybody knows SH has been overbuffed to ridiculous proportions. Population will drop there will less order to kill when switch or leave. A lot of these changes need to be removed to restore some kind of balance the game is becoming very onesided with over buffing of classes and the xrealmers. I worry about the long term effect of these changes cant be good for the game.

Everything was worse this time last year. The issue is not SHs, its low ranked/low geared players being nuked by geared SHs that have put in the time. Seeing a lot of the SHs you are seeing are not geared.

[teiloh]

Everybody knows SH has been overbuffed to ridiculous proportions. Population will drop there will less order to kill when switch or leave. A lot of these changes need to be removed to restore some kind of balance the game is becoming very onesided with over buffing of classes and the xrealmers. I worry about the long term effect of these changes cant be good for the game.

Everything was worse this time last year. The issue is not SHs, its low ranked/low geared players being nuked by geared SHs that have put in the time. Seeing a lot of the SHs you are seeing are not geared.

Most people are fine being time-stamped by Sorcs for 3000-5000+ damage in an instant. With Squigs, you don't get the sense that they risked or sacrificed anything for their kills.

Just too much damage and utility for the most mobile, survivable class.

[Neverever]

Everybody knows SH has been overbuffed to ridiculous proportions. Population will drop there will less order to kill when switch or leave. A lot of these changes need to be removed to restore some kind of balance the game is becoming very onesided with over buffing of classes and the xrealmers. I worry about the long term effect of these changes cant be good for the game.

Everything was worse this time last year. The issue is not SHs, its low ranked/low geared players being nuked by geared SHs that have put in the time. Seeing a lot of the SHs you are seeing are not geared.

Most people are fine being time-stamped by Sorcs for 3000-5000+ damage in an instant. With Squigs, you don't get the sense that they risked or sacrificed anything for their kills.

Just too much damage and utility for the most mobile, survivable class.

Just too much whining without reason and proof. SH is fine. Learn to play against them period.