Order is the new chaos?

[Lorsten]

Spoiler:

Playing on order is not that bad, insta sc pops, easy rr+gear farm on keeps and forts (at least you can have vanq/invader gear really fast).
With solo mentality on destro side you will be forever vanq, without sc pops, no solo queue citys...
I like playing my order toon, such a chill gameplay for solo rdps... you can put 0 effort and still get rewards.

If city dungeons are so much more difficult on order, it should be tuned down, to match destro.
PvE in this game should be fast and fairly easy.

Spoil - 84 RR Sorceress
Liops - 82 RR DoK
Nicebeard - 80 RR Marauder

I cant put my finger on it, but something doesnt look legit about this post. lol

Yes i main destro, but still got some time played on my order chars, and mostly solo pugging. Got bw around 70RR, and some other alts above 60. Adding all my above 80RR chars in signature would make it bigger than my posts.

[Panodil]

Playing on order is not that bad, insta sc pops, easy rr+gear farm on keeps and forts (at least you can have vanq/invader gear really fast).
With solo mentality on destro side you will be forever vanq, without sc pops, no solo queue citys...
I like playing my order toon, such a chill gameplay for solo rdps... you can put 0 effort and still get rewards.

If city dungeons are so much more difficult on order, it should be tuned down, to match destro.
PvE in this game should be fast and fairly easy.

PvE is not that much harder
Destro takes 40 min and order 50

Sure you cant really soloheal on order but its fine i would say.

[teiloh]

I know tons of knight players who won't touch their Knights because of the dozens of nerfs (many unwarranted) to the class.

Maybe Order just doesn't play tanks as much for reasons beyond Destro skill/organization/self-sacrifice/moral righteousness/genetic superiority.

[Nosun]

Knight is still good but yup nerfed. My wl is nerfed but still decent. dps am still good for killing destro and annoying them but definitely not any kind of meta class. Working on a wp and rp right now but they may be nerfed by the time I'm done typing this. Well I guess that sums it up. Keep nerfing order and buffing the zerglings what could go wrong?

[Whyumadbro]

playing order is for me the better side, fast pops, a underdog attitude wich is lorewise also correct, nice citys without orcs and the best, fast sc pops. I got full invader so fast on my bw toon. the only negative side is the constant whining about muh op destro, finally the sh has a vialble range specc and all start crying, i dont know why. Sadly the Wl got nerfed but hey the devs know what they do

[emiliorv]

This thread shows the problem on order(could have been destro if order had same leadership).
Blame everyone but them self. If its not balance its xrealm, dev bias or even apperance.
The order ”mains” in this thread are so defensive and ready to jump on any balance bandwagon... atm its msh and rsh, before it was cd reducer and gtdc.

Please give what Bombling said and then what the crazy peoples responses are.

Good OP by Bombling, respect this guy. The nerf bandwagon people should be ashamed.

They should but it's not going to happen. (R)dps players saying that there are not enough tanks/healers to face destro melee train instead of playing melee or support classes and they will find plenty excuses to explain their misery and it is never themselves.

You mean the "fun argument"...when you ask for those rdps to play a support role is when the "fun argument" jump, anything can be supported by that argument...Well, if pew-pew from keep walls is the only source of fun for them not much more to ask.

[Aurandilaz]

you could speedrun CT in 35 mins (best I've MTanked was 40mins), but you still need basically 2 healers 1 tank, due to some heavy AP drain mechanics and disorients. On Destro you can get away with 1 healer 1 tank, allowing 25-30min runs.
With more "puggish" teams both sides average around 1h.

so much for the "pve bias" angle. (yes, I was tester for both BBBE and C+T so obviously even extra biased)
BS/GB are identical, good luck making argument that Destro has advantage there.

so anyway, buff engi I guess, still not enough rdps players

[Wam]

Hi community,

Nothing about this situation will change from the outside, it starts with YOU Order-realm and it is long overdue.

you basically summed it up in your post

Spoiler:

order is about self play and zerg play (for the majority... there are a few guild exceptions but they are very few and far between)

destro is more about team play and zerg play (there is alot of badly organised warbands on destro but they have more spirit for fighting atleast and offensively trying, compared to order's boring bunker mentality unless overwhelming odds in their favour)

Order players have a weak culture and mentality when it comes to competitive open field fights and it shows, they are very defensive and just want to zerg or funnel... you take away zerg and funnel and you see what happens in cities...

IT IS NOT A FRIGGIN BALANCE PROBLEM... WE WENT ORDER AND PROVED ITS NOT A FRIGGING BALANCE PROBLEM, ANYONE WHO THINKS ITS A BALANCE PROBLEM SIMPLY IS BIASED AS **** AND DOES NOT HAVE A CLUE ABOUT THE GAME... THERE IS STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES ON BOTH SIDES AND AT THE TOP TIER ITS PRETTY EVEN DEPENDING ON COMPO AND MORE IMPORTANTLY PLAYER SKILL AND SYNERGY.

Anyone who thinks slayer is a bad mdps or worse than destro's shouldnt be allowed to post ever again on anything balance related seriously.

The issue is weak leadership, poor class distrubution and the victim complex. You think grass is greener but its not, Destro WOI nerfed... morale drain was nerfed and broken long time... morale bomb nerfed... heal debuff nerf also which effected destro alot more than order.
There is so much ignorance in this thread, mostly from order players, its ironic that destro players have a better understanding of order's strength and weaknesses than some order main's who always use the X Y Z is on the other side is OP while overlooking how strong the tools they have on their own realm is, and the ironic thing is they keep calling something that is mediocre OP when there is other things so much stronger its bloody hilarious to me as people always looking for excuses why they lose instead of the truth... there is no self reflection and what more they could do, its always cry "nerf this nerf that"... you cannot blame the dev's for everything man, they are volunteers have limited time and resources and do a fairly good job having to shift through all the crap to find relevant information and when you get thrown totally biased opinions all the time at you and drama it makes their job harder than it needs to be. They are human they make mistakes sure, but they also fix their mistakes like with old guard nerf in the past, i don't always agree with their decisions or direction like things which encourage zerging, they usually have good intention just sometimes poorly implemented / communicated which creates ripple effect issues.

Imagine having BW on your realm, slayer, kotbs, wp... and calling out other side is op? like for real do you play with your eyes closed?
You mention IB battery bot, SW BHA spam, WH aoe armour debuff as well, i mentioned the nerfs to destro from wb player over last couple of years... and still these order biased players think there is a huge difference between realms, the issue on order is strength in depth and being optimized, good players spread around and not stacking... alot of above average order guilds are bolsterd by having BIS sov gear now carry them more, on top of already strong core mechanics for most order classes... but because most of them only really know zerging they can be exposed when they seperate from the pack, its a shame more guilds dont have fight heavy mentality like KN had.

Our alliance on order side won many cities with many trash compo's... its not a balance issue, it is a player issue... the blacklist on order side is bigger than destro side and that is just for skill level and wrong spec alone, don't get me wrong both realms have similar issues but its more on order side. If people do not pull their weight they are not worth teaming with simple, people accepting low standards is part of the problem, order being so casual and pug mentality they accept low standards but want their cake and to eat it too then say other side is op without even really trying. This is being a victim, instead of doing something about it. If you want to win so badly bring a min max setup, or atleast players who know how to play their respective classes and can communicate to a okay standard.

People dont want engi's in their groups usually, and I am one of these because most are bad and not worth a dps spot because they are not pulling their weight. There is only a handful of good engi's on the server... people make meme's about Alec, he's a TUP engi... he farmed sov mostly solo without help and topping up the dps charts, doing 4x more than other engi's... he knows what hes doing he did it the hard way carried alot of pugs and not complain that other dps classes usually got picked ahead of him because of composition... dps spots should be very competitive, each and every spot all 8 of them... sometimes you see scoreboards with tanks doing more dmg than dps players (who are aoe not ST) and you know these people are not worth teaming with, its no offence but you get out what you put in... if you only half hearted then why you cry about what you get out of it?

Lately ive been half hearted when im on my 6th or 7th character by now and done hundreds of cities... running a chill 6 man is more fun than putting together a 24 man at random hours and relying on /5 filler who are beneath minimal standard or full of drama and cannot handle constructive criticism because snowflake. People lying about their specs or desires(not joining comms) just to get a spot, people afking way too much, seen it all... and that ruins the fun when you have to team with undesirables who are not committed. Way too many uncommitted people talk big on balance when they simply haven't put in the time or have their realm bias glasses on... well i have 24 40's and multiple 80's on both sides, I am honest to a fault, if one side gets over buffed i will let the dev's know and potentially take advantage of it(not always) until fixed depending how much spotlight is needed... like -20% crit against all of orders dps for example.

Alot of people use cities as measuring stick, which in some ways can be useful in others not so much, its a pve farm, its not min maxed for the most part as people are on their multiple alts by now... destro pugs within 2 weeks of city release got with the program and developed their infrastructure and discords for /5 wb's... order not so much, everyone wants the glory and play dps, they want to play the nice safe solo choice of rdps, nobody wants to do the dirty work and play support... it has nothing to do with looks, or balance (kotbs despite being nerfed is still best tank) IB is pretty cool, and sm despite being a little clunky is also solid, its all to do with mindset, most the players want minimum effort maximum reward... as solo rdps you get more reward... solo snb tank hard to get reward... solo healer hard to get reward, on live people use to heal more out of party soaking the renown in exchange.

It is a very stylistic and cultural issuee which has developed over years on order, and nothing you say no matter how well good intentioned... i can provide facts and evidence but it doesnt matter to most they have their own ignorant bias and agenda man, you cannot convince some of the doom mongers about balance because they are clueless and love to live in ignorance and use everything else as a excuse. Sorry but its true. People get so tied down in realm pride they cannot see clearly the bigger picture and probably havent been in a high end real competitive enviroment on one side, let alone both sides and for years...

You offer order premades glorious open field action for hours, or sitting in a fort funnel, or rank 3 keep funnel... the majority of order premades will pick the boring and safe option. Its one of the reasons why they que dodge and send their pugs to be slaughtered in cities then join up trying to avoid destro sharks. on order we always instant qued and if we get shark, thats just how it goes.

TL DR - order players will leach and keep on picking the selfish safe easy option and then blame game balance and design... when the game is designed around holy trinty... then they will blame devs for bias despite the nerfs to destro and buffs to order...
People will say they have more melee... but order have best melee slayer > MSH (w/ support) and all other broken opinions like they are fact.

Destro will keep on zerging and dying in forts and funnels... there is alot of bad dps players on destro also by the way, i see it when i take a 6 man that can bomb, 2 proper dps > 8 dps of puggies... it's git gud issues all round to be honest... i think alot of issues come from ignorance, lack of understanding, lack of effort, I don't think its so much inexperience as server is settled by now and most people have alot of play time under their belt.

Like destro pugs do not know how to push forts or funneled keeps that well... no double m4 sync, no proper m2 healing through walls, and if they do manage to get in without body blocking the dps hits like wet noodle so don't really achieve much. This stuff is very basic, if you do the basics well you have a good base... but its too much to ask for majority

You get painted as the bad guy or some kind of elitest when asking for the smallest amount of teamwork in a mmo possible... its very sad "insert you do not pay my sub here" "i play what is fun" "you are wrong" "you have no idea" "you are biased"

everyone wants to be superman... superman is sum of all parts you are just a cog and only as strong as your weakest cog.

Its a player issue, it won't change, the fact dev's caved in the past and rewarded this style of play made the problem worse bro, these people are never satisfied and bite the hand that feeds so i can understand sometimes when/if dev's or gm become a bit salty and agitated when same subject brought up for millionth time... I played back when we fought harder for every inch, hours and hundreds of kills for 1,000 renown for taking a keep after hours of intense fighting when it was so much harder to level... when completing genesis jewlery was a achievement, when gear was limited and so people couldnt use it as a excuse... you pamper the bitter players and they get encouraged to whine more and more to change the system, instead of adapt to it mate... its sad modern culture. Dev's have to give out all the patricipation trophies to encourage people to fight, but they always greedy and want more encouragement(rewards for little effort)

If i was new player and just dedicated to one character could be bis within 2 months and rr 80... in older days was hard to become legacy 80 and also the conq farm when everyone needed it took months of hard organised play... if i joined and went hard for a week could easily be 40 and full conq without any help... so I can see why dev's old off on sov weapons (also as future encouragement) but everytime they appease, you get more spoilt people come along and make unfounded baseless claims which i personally try to limit myself too being knee jerk unless i feel very strongly about something and have the foresight from extensive experience to see where its heading.

I appreciate the effort for trying to improve things though, we swap back and forth to try mix things up and find good action, if there was more guilds or warbands like cntk and vii in orvr that would be great... if there was 5 guilds either side like this active in large scale it would remind me of KN and id be more happy and less concerned about the state of orvr from large scale point of view.

[heybaws]

All those balance experts that considers msh best mdd, slayer being weaker than any destro mdd, kotbs being meme tank etc. Should just reroll on destro honestly. Competent order players will have more pugs to farm and there will be less victim mentality on order side aswell, which will improve realm in the long run.

[Wam]

you could speedrun CT in 35 mins (best I've MTanked was 40mins), but you still need basically 2 healers 1 tank, due to some heavy AP drain mechanics and disorients. On Destro you can get away with 1 healer 1 tank, allowing 25-30min runs.
With more "puggish" teams both sides average around 1h.

so much for the "pve bias" angle. (yes, I was tester for both BBBE and C+T so obviously even extra biased)
BS/GB are identical, good luck making argument that Destro has advantage there.

so anyway, buff engi I guess, still not enough rdps players

order can always use more rdps /s

they just need to add a Iwin button to when they stack them in cities ... even then i dont think some order biased posters would be happy

no expectation, no pressure, freedom to leach... everything handed to you on a plate even for losing you get BIS easily with minimum effort, you never have to talk to anyone in a mmo... but its still not enough, its never enough