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Order is the new chaos?

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Charon
Posts: 297

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#41 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:33 am

wonshot wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:04 am
Charon wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:02 pm ...In this case i completely disagree with you. If not devs no one have tools to solve problem that has been growing from years..DID YOU EVEN ASK yourself why order looks like that?? And ppl who are more keen to play together stay/flock to destro....
IB have gotten their AP battery+singletargetbuffing+aoe snare role for warbandplay, on top of guardbotting and mitigation role.
WH has a 40feet wide aoe armor debuff on top of dragongun build.
SW has aoe stacking dots, m2 snare morale, barrage morale drain.
And it does not work much
IB - ap battery does not change that ib is weakest wb tank simply because it utilities does match what Knight and SM can bring on the table in wb ..sad but true ..and its one of order problem ..People like ib conception / fluff but at the end this class is a realm weak point.
WH - there are different form of armour debuff application and WH does not bring much out side st pt - on paper conception is interesting, in reality i still haven't saw it working (maybe im not looking well enough) .. So WH still is a rather pic for st pt
SW - needs SM to work and i were mentioning sad status of this tank at order. Whats more is so easy to counter ..so easy ...even with this requirement...much easier than it mirror (?) msh. Whats more all of those abilities are only miror of the same utilities at destro - nothing special.
..Btw Did any one notice that SW aoe dots (eng also) again do not trigger any proc-s ....just saying bug or...... ;)

and compare those minor changes (and way how they were placed and apply) with rsh rework ...i see the difference

At the end Bombling about this order goldbags mentality .... its not true ... If order would do that ..every zone would be build by order not by desies pug...
The same with over stack of rdps ..its rather form of last sort necessity. Playing rdps formally does not need such group support like mdps ..the support that they canot get in ill constructed realm ..(in fact order rdps especially st are not better than destro equivalent). But did we got anything to change that ..iprovement of vialibity of order tanks for example. What ppl see is rather nerf to WL.. nothing more and that will not encourage positive evolutuion.
Last edited by Charon on Mon Jan 25, 2021 6:11 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Evilspinnre
Posts: 366

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#42 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:49 am

emiliorv wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:54 am Pug leaders avoid order because how the hell its supossed they can build a wb with only rdps?
Lutz came to order to try to lead - think he lasted 3 days :lol:
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lalasoup
Posts: 7

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#43 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:56 am

Just want to add what some have already mentioned. As a tank player on both sides, my observation is that Order melee train is usually much lighter compared to Destro. This allows the Destro train to have an easier time rolling right past Orders measly frontline and straight for Orders backline. This usually ends in a route and fairly frustrating time for Order tanks and mdps as we’re cut off from the rest of the WB. Something needs to be done to give players a reason to roll more melee toons on Order.

Panodil
Posts: 337

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#44 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 6:33 am

This thread shows the problem on order(could have been destro if order had same leadership).
Blame everyone but them self. If its not balance its xrealm, dev bias or even apperance.
The order ”mains” in this thread are so defensive and ready to jump on any balance bandwagon... atm its msh and rsh, before it was cd reducer and gtdc.

Please give what Bombling said and then what the crazy peoples responses are.

Good OP by Bombling, respect this guy. The nerf bandwagon people should be ashamed.
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Ysaran
Posts: 1219

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#45 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:00 am

wonshot wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:24 pm Hi community,
this post is simply to share my personal point of view after been mainly on Order-realm in my time on RoR. I will try my best to keep my BIAS in check but im sure some of it will overflow.
As of right now, and honestly for a good 60% of my time on the server the Destro-realm have had some sort of numbers advantage population vice. it usually swings over to Order in periods but with City grind introduced we are probably seeing the biggest extreme of Destro dominance and it is probably unlikely to change unless a guild swap over, as we have seen in the past. To try and even out the population.
My last big topic I asked the question "why is Order the way it is?" some of it gave me new perspectives to hear what others think but now ill try to give just my own take on what has put Order in this possition.



[Background]
Started as a nolstralgic solo player, made a BW called Wonshot and ran around in scenarios doing timestamp. Got bored and quit. Rejoined the server with Deep And Dry project lead by Sacrx, renamed and geared up in the conq era. Refound interest in the game when i got involved in largescale guild warfare again, after the guild had been on break since GW2 days. Renamed to Bombling and embrased what I think this game does better than other pvp mmos, largescale! Over time the guild lost interest in the server, New world and other distractions came on the radar. Since then ive been part of some very nice groups & guilds and i think all of them have had the same in common they have been striving to be competitive warband guilds. (VII on order pre citylaunch, TC, LBL)
Over the years those guilds are no more for different reasons, but they all have the same in common they could compete and they all struggled to recruit people from Order due to lack of interest as a whole from the realm.

During different timeperiodes of RoR some Destro controversial abilities have been labled as overperforming and almost everytime have I went to destro on my own to test firsthand and see if i agree with the complaints. First the DPS zealot with Winds of insanity, then the invadergear on choppa/slayer after forts were added while testing Gettothechoppa and now im testing the MSH.
Both realms have their own issues and strong suits. But after ive pushed the pve grind and almost done with Royal sets on one char on both realms i think ill share my findings on some areas that really stood out to me.

[Lookingforgroup channel]
On destro side the LFG channel is actually active in hours where there are no Citysieges. You have rare PQ22 raids for pugs, daily City-dungeon pve runs, scenario lowtier groups, and T4 scenario groups during weekend warfront.
On Order there are way fewer pve runs, full stop. PQ22 have I only seen done succesfully with LFG lead by Fenryl. There are some lower tier scenario groups, and same for warfront pug 2-2-2 but again at a way lower rate than on destro lfg channel.

[PVE]
Since Gunbad and Bastion are the same, there shouldnt be too much of a difference.
City dungeons have been a shock to me. On destro every encounter can be boiled down to "dont stand in puddles, kill adds" and maybe the end bosses have a 3rd mechanic that can be soloed handled by the tank moving the boss around. Destro speedruns take about 1/3 less time and even pugs are running with 1tank 3dps.
On Order city dungeons the encounters most guilds cant even succesfully run 1tank speedruns, I've heard of guildies failing 2-2-2 city dungeon attemps due to mechanic misunderstandings. With the archtype imballance on Order not only are these pve runs more rare to get going but they also seem to be more difficult for a pug group. (Tested and gave feedback on these prerelease with Deep And Dry group and maybe we gave feedback that were to match interesting pve encounters, instead of a pugfriendly speedrun contest that destro pve turned into being)

[Endgame pvp]
Both realms can compete and succeed! And I mean that, but for Order they need to fill their setups first. Finding that last tank spot can be an issue with 4 other warbands are also looking for a few tanks to finish their setup. We probably all know the differences for pugging citysiges on the two realms, order get pops destro might not, order have imballance between their archtypes destro seem to have a better spread etc etc etc.
When Order has 8-8-8 setup they can compete and it comes down to leadership, executing the fights and experience. As long as the meta is following in the footsteps of Live Citysieges:
- Everyone bring full aoe
- Some people start bringing a singletarget group and 3 aoe groups
- Everyone bring 1st 3aoe
- Some start bringing 2st 2aoe

As long as there are singletarget viability and Timetokill is not insane then every career can be invited for both realms, as there are room for having WHs and other none aoe specs as long as the players know how to play their class for End-Game-Content. Meaning you might face discord guild-only enemies so you need to match their level of involvement.

[Scenarios]
Imbalance between Order archtypes will often lead to no tanks in scenarios, as the tanks are not enjoying trying to guard and protect all the solo Rangeddps kiting and being all over the place. When the tanks stop attending then the MPDS become unhappy unless they are prenerf Whilelions and can solo, so we start seeing slayers unable to get involved and mdps running around looking for outskirt fights.
Any scenario can upset this issue by having a gear or skill(experience) difference, and at times you will find no healers or lack of tanks on destro too in pug scenarios.
Again the common factor is that setup plays a really big part as the very first step.
Ranked can be cheesed by players with synergy queueing together into the same matches when its suposed to be a SoloQ. It is an issue of too low population but every career on the serve seem to have atleast one skilled enough player out there who can be succesful on their class in ranked 2-2-2 scenarios.

[conclusion]
Order as a realm did for some reason end up being "harder" to pug on, compared to destro. The archtype imbalance would by my guess as to why.
Good balanced setups can win on both sides, both realms have their winconditions and different playstyles over the other realm and this is natural when its a none mirrored game.
I dont think this cultural change will come from the Devs, I can't see how they would even attempt to tacle this issue on Order. It needs to come from within.
So for any order pug player out there, know that there is hope. But it takes effort. Look to your realmmates, join groups guild and alliances with good setups.
There are plenty of guilds out there who are dieing to get new blood and help them fill out their rosters and most of their approach are nothing more than setting up a playdate 2hours two times a week and listen on a discord channel while you get to guard people near you, heal allies who are not out of range and you dont get to solo heal a party. Sounds lovely doesnt it? :D

Nothing about this situation will change from the outside, it starts with YOU Order-realm and it is long overdue.
I fully agree with you... except for your conclusion. I think it's easier to PUG on Order. SC player are a minority compared to total server population. Most ppl get their rr61 weaps and then stop playing SC. Majority of ppl play RvR only, not even PvE. In RvR being ranged makes you much more self-reliable, since you don't need guard or heals to make some kills. And so ppl rolls rDPS, join an open wb, and run around pew-pewing.
On the other hand, on destru side majority of player are melees (either tank or dps) and so you HAVE to get a group in order to do something, or you whille be annhilated be the wall of Engies, dps AMs, rSWs and BWs you are going to face.

The question we should ask is: is order ovestack of rDPS the source of the problem, or a symptom?
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Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#46 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:26 am

Panodil wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 6:33 am This thread shows the problem on order(could have been destro if order had same leadership).
Blame everyone but them self. If its not balance its xrealm, dev bias or even apperance.
The order ”mains” in this thread are so defensive and ready to jump on any balance bandwagon... atm its msh and rsh, before it was cd reducer and gtdc.

Please give what Bombling said and then what the crazy peoples responses are.

Good OP by Bombling, respect this guy. The nerf bandwagon people should be ashamed.
They should but it's not going to happen. (R)dps players saying that there are not enough tanks/healers to face destro melee train instead of playing melee or support classes and they will find plenty excuses to explain their misery and it is never themselves.
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normanis
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Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#47 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:37 am

if order have more love for tanks than those rdps whould spec proper builds for zerg, byt after all nerfs for tanks its good someone play tham. longer than 40/41
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Lorsten
Posts: 57

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#48 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:42 am

Playing on order is not that bad, insta sc pops, easy rr+gear farm on keeps and forts (at least you can have vanq/invader gear really fast).
With solo mentality on destro side you will be forever vanq, without sc pops, no solo queue citys...
I like playing my order toon, such a chill gameplay for solo rdps... you can put 0 effort and still get rewards.

If city dungeons are so much more difficult on order, it should be tuned down, to match destro.
PvE in this game should be fast and fairly easy.

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Mordd
Posts: 260

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#49 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:52 am

Destro player " order needs more melee"
Also destro " nerf WL and slayers"

Patch notes, repeated Wl and KotBS nerfs. Completely gutted KotBS 2H line and add better shield line to chosen for more spec options. Mess with WL spec lines so you cant spec for single target and pounce. While at it nerf pounce to near useless since they cant really spec it now anyways.

Destro " order needs more melee"
Also Destro "Good WL was nerfed so its not really any worry now"
Also Destro "KotBS is still the best tank in ROR. No I wont play one they are boring as hell to play" I literally heard this one from a Chosen player.

Oh yeah Order has one less melee class to begin with, again.

Mordd
Posts: 260

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#50 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:59 am

Lorsten wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:42 am Playing on order is not that bad, insta sc pops, easy rr+gear farm on keeps and forts (at least you can have vanq/invader gear really fast).
With solo mentality on destro side you will be forever vanq, without sc pops, no solo queue citys...
I like playing my order toon, such a chill gameplay for solo rdps... you can put 0 effort and still get rewards.

If city dungeons are so much more difficult on order, it should be tuned down, to match destro.
PvE in this game should be fast and fairly easy.

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