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Min. Scenario ReKnown Reward Debate

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Poll: Do you want a fix base min. Scenario-Reknown-Reward for all active players who lost the match?

Yes - Spending Time and Effort is worth it!
46
54%
No - If you loose - you dont deserve any reward!
35
41%
Dunno - ?? Not sure.
4
5%
Total votes: 85

BeautfulToad
Posts: 631

Re: Min. Scenario ReKnown Reward Debate

Post#31 » Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:06 am

I'd like to see dps-only SCs, for the sheer lol of it, and to allow for the overflow of dps toons that cant find parties.

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zulnam
Posts: 760

Re: Min. Scenario ReKnown Reward Debate

Post#32 » Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:43 am

BeautfulToad wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:06 am I'd like to see dps-only SCs, for the sheer lol of it, and to allow for the overflow of dps toons that cant find parties.
I was in one of those. It was actually quite refreshing to be honest. Reminiscent of an Unreal Tournament team deathmatch. :lol:

inoeth wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:52 am first thing that comes to my mind is how guild wars handles scs. there you get a fixed amount for losing, for winning and afaik some extra if you did something special (most dmg, most objective, most healing etc) i think that would be fair, it encourages ppl to participate. atm if you feel you are losing which is mostly determined after the first minute, there is not really any reason to go out and feed.
That is a horrible system. How does that keep people like, say, yourself to keep trying instead of sitting in base because "feeding"? In RoR, if you lose with 200 points, you get more emblems. If you lose 400 points you get pretty close to winer reward. At the same time, if you lose but get top contribution you get another emblem. So losing with 300 points and top heals and, say, objective (easiest one to top) you can get even 5 emblems. For a loss. The only way you can lose with just 1 emblem is if you get utterly stomped; which does happen. Sometimes the odds are not in your favour, no matter how much you try. But you should still keep trying.

During this weekend's SC event I saw a new low for 'not trying'. Was in a t2/3 premade on a wining streak (Saturday was a massacre of destro in EU time, think i lost like 3 games in total). We joined and we were 8 order.
Of course the team was split over p1 and p2 so we all moved to p2. This left a dps and a runepriest alone. The runepriest just went 'wtf' and left all parties (going 'stealth mode' as the parasites think).

In the end he did try, but barely. And I noticed this over the weekend. Players with very very low numbers, barely enough to not warrant a semi-afk report but still on the border of utterly useless.

SW with just 2k dmg, 39 book WP with 13k heal, this RP (was around 30) also with less than 15k heal.
All those matches were wins by the way. But not thanks to these leeches. Thanks to the players that took 5 minutes of their time in Altdorf to organise and join in proper groups, with Main Assist (we didn't even use discord).

To summarise: If you lose and you get 1 emblem, maybe it's you. Maybe you get the loser reward because that's what you are. Sorry you didn't get your Participation Trophy.
SW, Kotbs, IB, Slayer, WP, WL, SM, Mara, SH, BG

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inoeth
Suspended
Posts: 513

Re: Min. Scenario ReKnown Reward Debate

Post#33 » Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:57 am

zulnam wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:43 am
BeautfulToad wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:06 am I'd like to see dps-only SCs, for the sheer lol of it, and to allow for the overflow of dps toons that cant find parties.
I was in one of those. It was actually quite refreshing to be honest. Reminiscent of an Unreal Tournament team deathmatch. :lol:
inoeth wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:52 am first thing that comes to my mind is how guild wars handles scs. there you get a fixed amount for losing, for winning and afaik some extra if you did something special (most dmg, most objective, most healing etc) i think that would be fair, it encourages ppl to participate. atm if you feel you are losing which is mostly determined after the first minute, there is not really any reason to go out and feed.
That is a horrible system. How does that keep people like, say, yourself to keep trying instead of sitting in base because "feeding"? In RoR, if you lose with 200 points, you get more emblems. If you lose 400 points you get pretty close to winer reward.

During this weekend's SC event I saw a new low for 'not trying'. Was in a t2/3 premade on a wining streak (Saturday was a massacre of destro in EU time, think i lost like 3 games in total). We joined and we were 8 order.
Of course the team was split over p1 and p2 so we all moved to p2. This left a dps and a runepriest alone. The runepriest just went 'wtf' and left all parties (going 'stealth mode' as the parasites think).

In the end he did try, but barely. And I noticed this over the weekend. Players with very very low numbers, barely enough to not warrant a semi-afk report but still on the border of utterly useless.

SW with just 2k dmg, 39 book WP with 13k heal, this RP (was around 30) also with less than 15k heal.
All those matches were wins by the way. But not thanks to these leeches. Thanks to the players that took 5 minutes of their time in Altdorf to organise and join in proper groups, with Main Assist (we didn't even use discord).

To summarise: If you lose and you get 1 emblem, maybe it's you. Maybe you get the loser reward because that's what you are. Sorry you didn't get your Participation Trophy.

so you are against loser reward, am i correct?
your "case" reminds me alot of the "socialo welfare problem" which some ppl see in western countries. they say ppl need to get work, we can not feed the the lazy. in fact there is a small number that is actually lazy but its so small that it doesnt really make any difference if you kick them out or not. the majority is really trying hard but somehow fail, do you want to punish them? why is it important, in a game, to cut progress just out of pure envy? is it not supposed to be your fun time of the day when login in?
on the other hand, did you maybe think about for a second that your described "leechers" are the ppor ones that got a sc invite just a minute before it ended? happended to me alot tbh and i literally no chance to do any dmg/heal.

sometimes matching is really really off, like for real, its fair 6v6 at the beginning and suddenly another 1-2 grps join and screw the hole thing.

"how does that keep me from trying?" - well i play a game to have fun, sitting in a base is not.... id rather leave the sc if that would not give you the quitter and prevented you to find fun for the next 10min. i hear you already asking: "and the leechers?" - see above.

are you Kevin Chang?

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zulnam
Posts: 760

Re: Min. Scenario ReKnown Reward Debate

Post#34 » Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:53 am

inoeth wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:57 am so you are against loser reward, am i correct?
your "case" reminds me alot of the "socialo welfare problem" which some ppl see in western countries. they say ppl need to get work, we can not feed the the lazy. in fact there is a small number that is actually lazy but its so small that it doesnt really make any difference if you kick them out or not. the majority is really trying hard but somehow fail, do you want to punish them? why is it important, in a game, to cut progress just out of pure envy? is it not supposed to be your fun time of the day when login in?
on the other hand, did you maybe think about for a second that your described "leechers" are the ppor ones that got a sc invite just a minute before it ended? happended to me alot tbh and i literally no chance to do any dmg/heal.
Man just LOL. You are comparing complex socio-economic, heavily politicised, issues spanning decades with losing in a video game. Do you realise how silly that sounds?

And no, I don't confuse people leeching with those who just joined. Because it's easy to spot the difference. Someone who just joined a losing SC will have zero kills. Someone who's been there from the start will have whatever kills the team had. 1, 5, 10, 50. If everyone has 0 kills then it's a stomp so it doesn't matter.

inoeth wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:57 am sometimes matching is really really off, like for real, its fair 6v6 at the beginning and suddenly another 1-2 grps join and screw the hole thing.

That is very true. I've had it happen to me. Winning in 6v6, then it becomes a 12v12 and you lose. But it happens. You still get something, because if you were winning that initial 6v6 then you won't lose 500-0, but 500-2/300. So you get more than 1 emblems.


inoeth wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:57 am "how does that keep me from trying?" - well i play a game to have fun, sitting in a base is not.... id rather leave the sc if that would not give you the quitter and prevented you to find fun for the next 10min. i hear you already asking: "and the leechers?" - see above.
Then team up. Join or form 6-man groups. Try, at least a little bit. This is a challenging game. You will not have fun just by logging in and rolling your face on the keyboard and you should not ask the game to be changed in your image just because you want to have fun while putting in below average effort.


inoeth wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:57 am are you Kevin Chang?
In a competitive game, yes. I am. In a competitive, PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER game you cannot have winners without losers.


I am Chang.
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SW, Kotbs, IB, Slayer, WP, WL, SM, Mara, SH, BG

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inoeth
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Posts: 513

Re: Min. Scenario ReKnown Reward Debate

Post#35 » Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:56 am

sad world you live in, i feel sorry for you :(

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zulnam
Posts: 760

Re: Min. Scenario ReKnown Reward Debate

Post#36 » Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:02 am

inoeth wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:56 am sad world you live in, i feel sorry for you :(
That's fine, just don't join my scenarios.
SW, Kotbs, IB, Slayer, WP, WL, SM, Mara, SH, BG

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Meliannia
Posts: 276

Re: Min. Scenario ReKnown Reward Debate

Post#37 » Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:54 am

this is the 4th topic recently to tie into my original post on the forum about the weekend event scen

the issue is not really the losing team gets nothing
the issue is king of the hill type scens
only in king of the hill centre charge no brains no tactics healfest dmg spam stay still all game at same place in huge pack kill fest does the losing team get zero renown for their efforts 500-0 47-0 , 1 or 2 or 2 order player make zero difference as they get obliterated by the zerg soon a they stick their faces out

in the flag running and multiple base scens eg phoenix gate, eg gates of ekrund, eg logain forge, eg altdorf war quarters, where destro struggle because it means splitting up, using map, employing tactics other than brainless zerg destro tend to struggle even premades are not as effective and the losing team rarely gets beaten 500-0, zero renown. if destro split up, 2 or 3 good order players can kill the smaller grp, if destro stay as brainless zerg, Order simply take the other 2 bases and win the game

so the issue is really comign from the meleeball zergfest king of the hill scens eg mounkain tmeple, tol amroc, black crag, praarg, college of corruption, caledor woods etc


all the other scens the losing team usually gets 270 to 490 points. king of the hill is almost always a stomp with 75% of stomps 500-0

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zumos2
Posts: 431

Re: Min. Scenario ReKnown Reward Debate

Post#38 » Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:27 pm

There are different visions on what scenario should be. For me scenarios are about fighting in relatively organised environment. For that objectives exist merely to force players to fight. Therefor I prefer scenarios that force teams to engage rather than run around the map capping objectives. For example I hated GW2 sPvP for this exact reason, it wasn't about fighting, just about who could run around the map the fastest. For me that's not the type of PvP I want to play.
Zumos - Member of Red Guard

Current Guilds: The Unlikely Plan - Deep and Dry - Dark Omen

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Meliannia
Posts: 276

Re: Min. Scenario ReKnown Reward Debate

Post#39 » Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:24 pm

hail, zumos
the post is not about which scens ppl prefer to play
its about should the losing team get rewarded for their efforts
as ive pointed out in multiple base scens and flag run scens the losing team more often than not DOES get rewarded for their efforts so its a non issue in these scens eg Dragon bane, Stonetroll, Gates of Ekrund, Nordenwatch, Logain Forge etc

as ive pointed out the losing team getting nothing is only an issue in king of the hill scens (eg tol amroc, mounkain temple, college of corruption etc) where the losing team lose 500-0 47 kills to 0 for 12min wasted time zero renown
all other scens types the losing team scores 200 to 490 and earns 800 to 3500 renown for their efforts which i think is fine and doesnt need changing.

its just king of the hill where you get nothing for losing.

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Flowson
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Posts: 91
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Re: Min. Scenario ReKnown Reward Debate

Post#40 » Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:21 pm

In a competitive, PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER game you cannot have winners without losers.
@zulnam,
thats why winners are getting more rewards than losers. This Thread is about discussing options to grant a min.fix base reknown reward for those participated and lost. Its not about taking rewards off the wining team. Thats why winners will still get more reknown by the end of the day. This thread is about options to increase SC participation to gain progress, even if you loose - but win expierence & reknown for trying!

@Meliannia,
[...] issue in king of the hill scens (eg tol amroc, mounkain temple, college of corruption etc) where the losing team lose 500-0 47 kills to 0 for 12min wasted time zero renown
.

Totally Agree with you :)

As for further discussion:

if the loseing party keeps getting 0-150 reknown in a row -simple because they have lost- they are not likely to join another scenario. because they simply give in and skip SCS in the future.

This leads to the following consideration:
You cannot have winners, without loosers.
? Well - you can - if people refuse to join because playing becomes pointless.

therefore, to all critics out there, take care of your "loosers", you might become one of them in the future if we dont make adjustments to the current system.

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