The misconception about Engi/magi

[Shanell]

Magus can DoT many people in 1 cast. His DoTs will damage for 100-150 damage but multiply it by 24/48 and you will soon realise what all that damage is.

[Rowanmantle]

I just want to ask - what were the numbers of healing done during these city sieges? I bet 1 toof that they were much higher than in mirros with no maguses/engis because these damage numbers are fluff damage.

Yes... the 70 DB's and 8mil damage Shiro pulled was all fluff.

[lyncher12]

noob class for players who want to play with one hand and eat chips and watch netflix

[Schweedy]

I just want to ask - what were the numbers of healing done during these city sieges? I bet 1 toof that they were much higher than in mirros with no maguses/engis because these damage numbers are fluff damage.

Yes... the 70 DB's and 8mil damage Shiro pulled was all fluff.

It is laughable to even suggest that the performance of a few elite Engis (and 1 Magus) vs PUG instances and scenarios should automatically warrant inclusion into a serious balancing dialog.

Ridiculous assumptions being made here over a class based on nit-picked instances of single-digit, high-performing Engis/Magus, with alliances that structure their warband play around these optimally geared players to succeed vs PuG warbands and other mediocre alliance warbands. Can anyone here see the forest for the trees at all?

The class problem is an issue that must be looked at as holistically as possible, rather than through the myopic lenses people in these forums like to rely on with a heavy dose of confirmation bias. PUG Forts/Instances can, and often do, revert to a veritable hellscape against sides that capitalize on the inherent advantages afforded to their classes in the most optimal way possible. If you use PUG instances to make any class-based critiqued, you deserve to be laughed at.

This is what a common PUG/mediocre wb hellscape looks like in this game. If you haven't been in the receiving end, you haven't lived.
DBs [IC1 3-27-2021] _________ DMG______________________ Healing ___________________Protection


Also Magus=/=Engi. What they each bring to the table is dependent on how they are utilized, and sorry to break the news to y'all, but Engi brings much more to the table than Rift in terms of group viability.
Much more than what Magus could even hope for in RvR.

EDIT: I just realized Rowanmantle was a part of that IC instance. You tell me man... you tell me. How's that meta looking? Feels good right?

[nonfactor]

Because the last few months Magus holds the record with 11mil damage done in instance1 premade vs premade.
And a couple of engineers have pulled simular numbers in premade vs premade involving some of the best players on the server against them.

The world doesnt revolve around 24v24.

[Rowanmantle]

I just want to ask - what were the numbers of healing done during these city sieges? I bet 1 toof that they were much higher than in mirros with no maguses/engis because these damage numbers are fluff damage.

Yes... the 70 DB's and 8mil damage Shiro pulled was all fluff.

It is laughable to even suggest that the performance of a few elite Engis (and 1 Magus) vs PUG instances and scenarios should automatically warrant inclusion into a serious balancing dialog.

Ridiculous assumptions being made here over a class based on nit-picked instances of single-digit, high-performing Engis/Magus, with alliances that structure their warband play around these optimally geared players to succeed vs PuG warbands and other mediocre alliance warbands. Can anyone here see the forest for the trees at all?

The class problem is an issue that must be looked at as holistically as possible, rather than through the myopic lenses people in these forums like to rely on with a heavy dose of confirmation bias. PUG Forts/Instances can, and often do, revert to a veritable hellscape against sides that capitalize on the inherent advantages afforded to their classes in the most optimal way possible. If you use PUG instances to make any class-based critiqued, you deserve to be laughed at.

This is what a common PUG/mediocre wb hellscape looks like in this game. If you haven't been in the receiving end, you haven't lived.
DBs [IC1 3-27-2021] _________ DMG______________________ Healing ___________________Protection


Also Magus=/=Engi. What they each bring to the table is dependent on how they are utilized, and sorry to break the news to y'all, but Engi brings much more to the table than Rift in terms of group viability.
Much more than what Magus could even hope for in RvR.

EDIT: I just realized Rowanmantle was a part of that IC instance. You tell me man... you tell me. How's that meta looking? Feels good right?

Well I do not play engie myself, and to my knowledge this was not a pug/mediocre warband it was 2 12 mans we faced. Sadly we had the upper hand with the composition.

Funny enough I do agree with you, engies are more viable because of what they bring to the table in terms of PD, 15% is a huge debuff. So before people brought engies not only for the damage they could provide, or the cc/nuisance they can be to an enemy team. But they can also debuff armor with the Warlord set and thanks to the fix the devs did a while ago PD can now be applied by napalm.

Maguses can also perform well i believe Restlin/Jolt and a few others come to mind here. Not only in aoe purposes, I was in a city where Restlin played full ST, assisting the ST party and that was pure hell, coupled with the burst from Advarka.

Does that mean then that classes should be nerfed based on the performance of some individuals? No.

Class balance should always first and foremost be about making it balanced. However, good well rounded players can take almost any class and make it work.


Referring to the city you linked screenshots of, if you do take a gander at the DB of the ST group you'd see that it was them who applied the most pressure in that city. We all know what its like to be a healer, under pressure having to worry about ST parties/xhealing and then perhaps having to try and ress/counter morale drops.

City is not always A B C = 1 2 3. It is a combination of MA in the aoe bomb working cohesively with their ST group, and banking on the pressure that the ST group provides. For example if the ST group can down enough healers and the aoe group down a few dps, then the enemy is in a full ress cycle allowing for the domino affect to come into play. This is then the breaking point for a wb. Can one recover? Are you able to stabilize groups or do you retreat and fight again fresh.

Furthermore asking me how that meta is looking, well many who know me and have played with me and against me know, that i have lost my fair share of cities. Some even so bad that people leave before stage 3. Its a matter of mindset then and the willing to take something from it and improve/better oneself.

[Schweedy]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Yes... the 70 DB's and 8mil damage Shiro pulled was all fluff.

It is laughable to even suggest that the performance of a few elite Engis (and 1 Magus) vs PUG instances and scenarios should automatically warrant inclusion into a serious balancing dialog.

Ridiculous assumptions being made here over a class based on nit-picked instances of single-digit, high-performing Engis/Magus, with alliances that structure their warband play around these optimally geared players to succeed vs PuG warbands and other mediocre alliance warbands. Can anyone here see the forest for the trees at all?

The class problem is an issue that must be looked at as holistically as possible, rather than through the myopic lenses people in these forums like to rely on with a heavy dose of confirmation bias. PUG Forts/Instances can, and often do, revert to a veritable hellscape against sides that capitalize on the inherent advantages afforded to their classes in the most optimal way possible. If you use PUG instances to make any class-based critiqued, you deserve to be laughed at.

This is what a common PUG/mediocre wb hellscape looks like in this game. If you haven't been in the receiving end, you haven't lived.
DBs [IC1 3-27-2021] _________ DMG______________________ Healing ___________________Protection


Also Magus=/=Engi. What they each bring to the table is dependent on how they are utilized, and sorry to break the news to y'all, but Engi brings much more to the table than Rift in terms of group viability.
Much more than what Magus could even hope for in RvR.

EDIT: I just realized Rowanmantle was a part of that IC instance. You tell me man... you tell me. How's that meta looking? Feels good right?

Well I do not play engie myself, and to my knowledge this was not a pug/mediocre warband it was 2 12 mans we faced. Sadly we had the upper hand with the composition.

Funny enough I do agree with you, engies are more viable because of what they bring to the table in terms of PD, 15% is a huge debuff. So before people brought engies not only for the damage they could provide, or the cc/nuisance they can be to an enemy team. But they can also debuff armor with the Warlord set and thanks to the fix the devs did a while ago PD can now be applied by napalm.

Maguses can also perform well i believe Restlin/Jolt and a few others come to mind here. Not only in aoe purposes, I was in a city where Restlin played full ST, assisting the ST party and that was pure hell, coupled with the burst from Advarka.

Does that mean then that classes should be nerfed based on the performance of some individuals? No.

Class balance should always first and foremost be about making it balanced. However, good well rounded players can take almost any class and make it work.


Referring to the city you linked screenshots of, if you do take a gander at the DB of the ST group you'd see that it was them who applied the most pressure in that city. We all know what its like to be a healer, under pressure having to worry about ST parties/xhealing and then perhaps having to try and ress/counter morale drops.

City is not always A B C = 1 2 3. It is a combination of MA in the aoe bomb working cohesively with their ST group, and banking on the pressure that the ST group provides. For example if the ST group can down enough healers and the aoe group down a few dps, then the enemy is in a full ress cycle allowing for the domino affect to come into play. This is then the breaking point for a wb. Can one recover? Are you able to stabilize groups or do you retreat and fight again fresh.

Furthermore asking me how that meta is looking, well many who know me and have played with me and against me know, that i have lost my fair share of cities. Some even so bad that people leave before stage 3. Its a matter of mindset then and the willing to take something from it and improve/better oneself.

Glad we could admit to the superiority of the Engi vs Magi in RvR viability.

RvR optimized classes rule the scene. Note how there are exactly 4 Knights in the order side in the protection screen. Not a coincidence. Knight > Chosen, Slayer > Choppa, BW > Sorc, Engi > Magi. Anyone with experience in the scene can attest to this, it's damn near undeniable at this point (not even considering the M4 Nukes), but I digress.

That warband you faced off [The Nobodies/Damned] was supremely mediocre, I was in their discord the ENTIRE TIME.
Whatever the reasons for their failures (intrinsic and/or extrinsic factors) the main factors must have been subpar comp and mediocre dumpster fire DPS from Destro MDPS (probably monstro), regardless I amazed my guildmaster when I told him I stuck around stage 3. Because of this I don't think I will ever group with a Mara dominated city comp.

Ultimately, Destro's "alleged" flexibility in warband countering is its own downfall, and the remedial RvR-spec Magus can't save it. Few people know how to do proper Order WB counters in Forts, let alone cities. Maybe TUP can pull it off, and some other EU guilds. But that's it.