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Anatomy of a Failed Patch

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Orontes
Posts: 276

Anatomy of a Failed Patch

Post#1 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:34 am

The March 18th Patch is a comic farce made tragic.  It is also a direct attack on two classes: engineers and magi.  It needs to be rolled back immediately.  What follows is an anatomy of two aspects from the Combat and Careers section of the absurdity. 


-First, Trivial Blows (TB) has been reintroduced, like a killer from so many horrors shows that all thought rightly dead, it has returned to wreak havoc.  This was one of the worst aspects from Live.  It is presented at 80% of its horror show value from Live.  This is 80% too high. TB will adversely affect all classes that require a high crit. modifier.  TB has no equivalent renown point counter.  It exacerbates the difference between high renown rank players and the chaff.  It is a bad thing on its face.  It needs to be sent back to the hole it was previously consigned to.  


-Second, Engi/Magi bonus damage was cut in half from 40% to 20%. This returns both careers to the status they had on Live when they were comic relief classes.  It is a direct assault on both classes' viability.


-The rationale as currently understood:  

According to a Cqengi (who supplies class reports the Devs may act on for Patches):  he relayed to the Powers that a prior stupid change where engi/magi abilities Mist and Napalm were made defendable, were subsequently receiving the 40% damage bonus and not calculating resists correctly.  A single Dev comment in response stated resists were being calculated correctly, but both Mist and Napalm have a low stat multiplier, but with high base damage, so toughness wasn't reducing damage as much.  This is a curious statement given both abilities are area of affect pressure damage abilities, with a drawn out damage build up. One can walk out of damage area at any time of it's 30 seconds of built up damage, and/or be healed through it. Neither are burst, or sudden killers.  Even so, instead of simply removing the defendable status of both single abilities for reevaluation, the Powers decided to gut all bonus damage by half that affects every damage ability for both classes.  This action is mind numbing in its decided action.  If a single ability for each class is the focus, why are all abilities for both classes then undercut? 

 Again, according to Cqenqi, the core matrix the Powers are using to evaluate class standing is the damage done during City actions.  If this is correct, it is stunningly ignorant.  Engi/Magi AOE is fluff damage. It doesn't have any burst components.  Further, to base any evaluation of class performance off of numbers alone confuses a calculation as a justification: class X has sum Y as its damage therefore, imbalance?  Such analysis ignores the player experience.   How many City action grps are begging for engi or magi? How many are running in fear during City actions because engi/magi are on the opposing side?  Where are the hordes of threads complaining about engi/magi OP-ness in Cities?  This patch is a direct attack on two classes that were not considered over performing in Cities by the larger player base.  It is clear the Powers that undertook this action do not play these classes in any meaningful way, or have knowledge of the classes played experience.  These patch actions were done in ignorance of the classes affected. 


-The big lie  


The Powers presented the halving of the all engi/magi bonus damage from 40% to 20% as a bug fix.  The rhetoric of the action taken therefore is there was a flaw in the system, a glitch, an unintended error that needed correction.  This shifts any blame or anger away from the Devs.  If the Devs are simply correcting an error, their hands are clean and can mitigate any blowback.  The problem is the 40% damage bonus was part of the engi/magi class rework of Oct. 16th, 2016. It was intentional.  To quote:

"Changes to Improvised Upgrades and Unholy Empowerment:+ Damage is increased by 5% per stack instead of 4%.
+ The maximum stack is now 8, up from 5, for a maximum bonus of 40% damage.
+ These buffs will also increase the range of both you and your pet by 6.25% per stack, to a maximum of 50%" 

It is also listed on the game wiki:

"Turrets grant up to 8 Improvised Upgrades stacks every 2s when within 30ft of your turret. Damage is increased by 5% per stack for a max of 40% damage. 4 stacks of Improvised Upgrades are lost when a turret is destroyed for any reason. All stacks of Improvised Upgrades are lost when a turret of a different type than the last is constructed."


There was no bug.  The 40% damage bonus was a decided action to help two traditionally underperforming classes.  It was the right decision then, and remains the right decision now.  It is from that point engi/magi became viable. 


-Conclusions:

Engi/magi are pet classes.  Any action that weakens the value or the benefit of the pet, to that same degree undercuts the core mechanic of the class. By returning the damage bonus to Live levels both engi and magi are being relegated back to an inferior state.  The Dev(s) responsible for these changes does not understand the classes: does not understand the played experience of these classes. This bonus damage halving is a fundamental error based on flawed analysis, and presented under the cover of a lie. 

This is a bad patch. The Combat and Career changes need to be reversed.  

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Caduceus
Posts: 235

Re: Anatomy of a Failed Patch

Post#2 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:01 am

Orontes wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:34 am


 Again, according to Cqenqi, the core matrix the Powers are using to evaluate class standing is the damage done during City actions.  If this is correct, it is stunningly ignorant.  Engi/Magi AOE is fluff damage. It doesn't have any burst components.  Further, to base any evaluation of class performance off of numbers alone confuses a calculation as a justification: class X has sum Y as its damage therefore, imbalance?  Such analysis ignores the player experience.   How many City action grps are begging for engi or magi? How many are running in fear during City actions because engi/magi are on the opposing side?  Where are the hordes of threads complaining about engi/magi OP-ness in Cities?  This patch is a direct attack on two classes that were not considered over performing in Cities by the larger player base.  It is clear the Powers that undertook this action do not play these classes in any meaningful way, or have knowledge of the classes played experience.  These patch actions were done in ignorance of the classes affected. 


I suspected this was happening, and I fully agree that damage numbers alone cannot lead to good balancing decisions.

Numbers on a board, whether they be Damage Done, Deathblows or 3 second bursts on a target dummy, they are meaningless without context.

What they are, are blank sheets of paper that one can project their personal biases onto.

I thought the introduction of class advisors was supposed to make an end to the developers having to rely on these senseless tools.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

Jastojan
Posts: 202

Re: Anatomy of a Failed Patch

Post#3 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:14 am

You have my +1 when it comes to that this patch was not necessary.
Trivial blows are enough to "slap" magus/engi across the face (not only them but BW/Sorc...). Why the hell there comes even this nerf I do not understand. TB + this nerf = KO for engi/magus

I did not notice multiple threads here on the forum asking for engi/magus nerf. So why? Screenshots from cities? As a magus, you have to build up your 40% bonus, it takes time, your pet could be killed, in the open field you hardly get full bonus, you are less mobile if you want to keep the bonus, your rotation/burst takes time, your opponents have time to react, etc.. So why this? I dont get it.
And that "bugfix cover" of the nerf is a cherry on top of that.
Last edited by Jastojan on Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

Neverever
Posts: 181

Re: Anatomy of a Failed Patch

Post#4 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:46 am

Orontes wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:34 am
The March 18th Patch is a comic farce made tragic.  It is also a direct attack on two classes: engineers and magi.  It needs to be rolled back immediately.  What follows is an anatomy of two aspects from the Combat and Careers section of the absurdity. 


-First, Trivial Blows (TB) has been reintroduced, like a killer from so many horrors shows that all thought rightly dead, it has returned to wreak havoc.  This was one of the worst aspects from Live.  It is presented at 80% of its horror show value from Live.  This is 80% too high. TB will adversely affect all classes that require a high crit. modifier.  TB has no equivalent renown point counter.  It exacerbates the difference between high renown rank players and the chaff.  It is a bad thing on its face.  It needs to be sent back to the hole it was previously consigned to.  


-Second, Engi/Magi bonus damage was cut in half from 40% to 20%. This returns both careers to the status they had on Live when they were comic relief classes.  It is a direct assault on both classes' viability.


-The rationale as currently understood:  

According to a Cqengi (who supplies class reports the Devs may act on for Patches):  he relayed to the Powers that a prior stupid change where engi/magi abilities Mist and Napalm were made defendable, were subsequently receiving the 40% damage bonus and not calculating resists correctly.  A single Dev comment in response stated resists were being calculated correctly, but both Mist and Napalm have a low stat multiplier, but with high base damage, so toughness wasn't reducing damage as much.  This is a curious statement given both abilities are area of affect pressure damage abilities, with a drawn out damage build up. One can walk out of damage area at any time of it's 30 seconds of built up damage, and/or be healed through it. Neither are burst, or sudden killers.  Even so, instead of simply removing the defendable status of both single abilities for reevaluation, the Powers decided to gut all bonus damage by half that affects every damage ability for both classes.  This action is mind numbing in its decided action.  If a single ability for each class is the focus, why are all abilities for both classes then undercut? 

 Again, according to Cqenqi, the core matrix the Powers are using to evaluate class standing is the damage done during City actions.  If this is correct, it is stunningly ignorant.  Engi/Magi AOE is fluff damage. It doesn't have any burst components.  Further, to base any evaluation of class performance off of numbers alone confuses a calculation as a justification: class X has sum Y as its damage therefore, imbalance?  Such analysis ignores the player experience.   How many City action grps are begging for engi or magi? How many are running in fear during City actions because engi/magi are on the opposing side?  Where are the hordes of threads complaining about engi/magi OP-ness in Cities?  This patch is a direct attack on two classes that were not considered over performing in Cities by the larger player base.  It is clear the Powers that undertook this action do not play these classes in any meaningful way, or have knowledge of the classes played experience.  These patch actions were done in ignorance of the classes affected. 


-The big lie  


The Powers presented the halving of the all engi/magi bonus damage from 40% to 20% as a bug fix.  The rhetoric of the action taken therefore is there was a flaw in the system, a glitch, an unintended error that needed correction.  This shifts any blame or anger away from the Devs.  If the Devs are simply correcting an error, their hands are clean and can mitigate any blowback.  The problem is the 40% damage bonus was part of the engi/magi class rework of Oct. 16th, 2016. It was intentional.  To quote:

"Changes to Improvised Upgrades and Unholy Empowerment:+ Damage is increased by 5% per stack instead of 4%.
+ The maximum stack is now 8, up from 5, for a maximum bonus of 40% damage.
+ These buffs will also increase the range of both you and your pet by 6.25% per stack, to a maximum of 50%" 

It is also listed on the game wiki:

"Turrets grant up to 8 Improvised Upgrades stacks every 2s when within 30ft of your turret. Damage is increased by 5% per stack for a max of 40% damage. 4 stacks of Improvised Upgrades are lost when a turret is destroyed for any reason. All stacks of Improvised Upgrades are lost when a turret of a different type than the last is constructed."


There was no bug.  The 40% damage bonus was a decided action to help two traditionally underperforming classes.  It was the right decision then, and remains the right decision now.  It is from that point engi/magi became viable. 


-Conclusions:

Engi/magi are pet classes.  Any action that weakens the value or the benefit of the pet, to that same degree undercuts the core mechanic of the class. By returning the damage bonus to Live levels both engi and magi are being relegated back to an inferior state.  The Dev(s) responsible for these changes does not understand the classes: does not understand the played experience of these classes. This bonus damage halving is a fundamental error based on flawed analysis, and presented under the cover of a lie. 

This is a bad patch. The Combat and Career changes need to be reversed.  
Anatomy of a whine post.

TB is fine and it was also fine in Live. Only bad players kept whining about it back in live and it is the same deal here. Spending 45 RPs on renown trainer for %40 crit dmg reduction is not even a good investment at all considering your renown points is limited to 80.

Engi and magus were clearly overperforming and %20 reduction on pet buff is a good change that brought them to where they supposed to be. So it is not the patch that failed but your expectations. You would get used to it. Just give it some time.

nat3s
Posts: 346

Re: Anatomy of a Failed Patch

Post#5 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:50 am

I love it when there's an aoe engi in an SC as i know it means ill get some fat total healing numbers without trying on my sham by spamming aoe heal...

That example is essentially the problem, engi/magus do lots of fluff damage that is incredibly easy to heal through, they have a lot of aoe dots/abilities which don't hit hard. Choppa/Slayer aoe is quite different as it's much more bursty and generates real pressure.

I was in favour of the patch originally as Order is infested with engis, but the more I think about it, the more I feel like it alienates a large slice of the community and nerfs classes which are not well represented in city play.
Defraz rr81 Magus
Defrack rr81 Mara
Induce rr77 Shaman
rr7x AM, Choppa, WL, WH, WE

User avatar
Zizzelfizz
Posts: 150

Re: Anatomy of a Failed Patch

Post#6 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:58 am

when I read here how others enjoy it when a class is broken, I wish them exactly the same. many players have invested thousands of hours in their characters to collect equipment ect.
but if your bw, sorc etc. throws around in the thousands of dots and bolts that is completely ok. you cried over the RSH and achieved nothing. that's where the nerf from engi and magus comes in handy for you. I can't eat as much as I could throw up
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AxelF
Posts: 208

Re: Anatomy of a Failed Patch

Post#7 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:59 am

OP this level of hyperbole is guaranteed to not get your thoughts taken seriously. You might want to have another go, but taking it down a notch.

Sulorie
Posts: 5450

Re: Anatomy of a Failed Patch

Post#8 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:43 am

Catchy thread title, I am sure it will be convincing.
Dying is no option.

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Toranes
Posts: 14

Re: Anatomy of a Failed Patch

Post#9 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:50 am

Orontes wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:34 am
The March 18th Patch is a comic farce made tragic.  It is also a direct attack on two classes: engineers and magi.  It needs to be rolled back immediately.  What follows is an anatomy of two aspects from the Combat and Careers section of the absurdity. 


-First, Trivial Blows (TB) has been reintroduced, like a killer from so many horrors shows that all thought rightly dead, it has returned to wreak havoc.  This was one of the worst aspects from Live.  It is presented at 80% of its horror show value from Live.  This is 80% too high. TB will adversely affect all classes that require a high crit. modifier.  TB has no equivalent renown point counter.  It exacerbates the difference between high renown rank players and the chaff.  It is a bad thing on its face.  It needs to be sent back to the hole it was previously consigned to.  


-Second, Engi/Magi bonus damage was cut in half from 40% to 20%. This returns both careers to the status they had on Live when they were comic relief classes.  It is a direct assault on both classes' viability.


-The rationale as currently understood:  

According to a Cqengi (who supplies class reports the Devs may act on for Patches):  he relayed to the Powers that a prior stupid change where engi/magi abilities Mist and Napalm were made defendable, were subsequently receiving the 40% damage bonus and not calculating resists correctly.  A single Dev comment in response stated resists were being calculated correctly, but both Mist and Napalm have a low stat multiplier, but with high base damage, so toughness wasn't reducing damage as much.  This is a curious statement given both abilities are area of affect pressure damage abilities, with a drawn out damage build up. One can walk out of damage area at any time of it's 30 seconds of built up damage, and/or be healed through it. Neither are burst, or sudden killers.  Even so, instead of simply removing the defendable status of both single abilities for reevaluation, the Powers decided to gut all bonus damage by half that affects every damage ability for both classes.  This action is mind numbing in its decided action.  If a single ability for each class is the focus, why are all abilities for both classes then undercut? 

 Again, according to Cqenqi, the core matrix the Powers are using to evaluate class standing is the damage done during City actions.  If this is correct, it is stunningly ignorant.  Engi/Magi AOE is fluff damage. It doesn't have any burst components.  Further, to base any evaluation of class performance off of numbers alone confuses a calculation as a justification: class X has sum Y as its damage therefore, imbalance?  Such analysis ignores the player experience.   How many City action grps are begging for engi or magi? How many are running in fear during City actions because engi/magi are on the opposing side?  Where are the hordes of threads complaining about engi/magi OP-ness in Cities?  This patch is a direct attack on two classes that were not considered over performing in Cities by the larger player base.  It is clear the Powers that undertook this action do not play these classes in any meaningful way, or have knowledge of the classes played experience.  These patch actions were done in ignorance of the classes affected. 


-The big lie  


The Powers presented the halving of the all engi/magi bonus damage from 40% to 20% as a bug fix.  The rhetoric of the action taken therefore is there was a flaw in the system, a glitch, an unintended error that needed correction.  This shifts any blame or anger away from the Devs.  If the Devs are simply correcting an error, their hands are clean and can mitigate any blowback.  The problem is the 40% damage bonus was part of the engi/magi class rework of Oct. 16th, 2016. It was intentional.  To quote:

"Changes to Improvised Upgrades and Unholy Empowerment:+ Damage is increased by 5% per stack instead of 4%.
+ The maximum stack is now 8, up from 5, for a maximum bonus of 40% damage.
+ These buffs will also increase the range of both you and your pet by 6.25% per stack, to a maximum of 50%" 

It is also listed on the game wiki:

"Turrets grant up to 8 Improvised Upgrades stacks every 2s when within 30ft of your turret. Damage is increased by 5% per stack for a max of 40% damage. 4 stacks of Improvised Upgrades are lost when a turret is destroyed for any reason. All stacks of Improvised Upgrades are lost when a turret of a different type than the last is constructed."


There was no bug.  The 40% damage bonus was a decided action to help two traditionally underperforming classes.  It was the right decision then, and remains the right decision now.  It is from that point engi/magi became viable. 


-Conclusions:

Engi/magi are pet classes.  Any action that weakens the value or the benefit of the pet, to that same degree undercuts the core mechanic of the class. By returning the damage bonus to Live levels both engi and magi are being relegated back to an inferior state.  The Dev(s) responsible for these changes does not understand the classes: does not understand the played experience of these classes. This bonus damage halving is a fundamental error based on flawed analysis, and presented under the cover of a lie. 

This is a bad patch. The Combat and Career changes need to be reversed.  
100% with you. I hope the dev(s) understand this fail and reverse it.
Romim/Kortiri

M0rw47h
Suspended
Posts: 898

Re: Anatomy of a Failed Patch

Post#10 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:02 am

OP I think you totaly miss the point of "fix".
Engineer population is too big, most of them don't even group or do anything revelant for campaign or organized smallscale (at best they group with other engis) they just hide on top of some hill or wall skipping entire drawback of "low mobility" and pew pew. Personaly I find it very good change, as it doesn't really matter much for any form of organized play where you've to be mobile anyway, unless fighting pugs.

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