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Punishment of the Pugs

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Sinisterror
Posts: 258

Re: Punishment of the Pugs

Post#31 » Mon May 03, 2021 7:08 am

Topdude wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 6:22 pm
GamesBond wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:27 pm


The game rewards you for teaming up, it's advised everywhere and in any game mode. It also punishes you if you solo play and that's how it is, it's just how a PvP game is. Weekend SCs will remain open to everyone. Now whether you want to team up and increase your winning chance and rewards, or queue solo and get defeated often due to lack of organization, is up to you. The game itself and the social programs have facilitated communication and grouping for everyone, there's no way you'd miss a group/guild if you actually wanted to join.
I'm afraid I have to disagree. AOR never had the punishment toward solo/Pug players that the Devs of RoR are implementing.
Back in the day of "live" and back in the earlier years of RoR, pugs were the much needed "filler" of a realms' success. These days, as server pop has dwindled from it's highs of +2000 I see more and more players that prefer not to join groups for whatever reason. The Dev team should really take this into consideration and realize that the game needs to be enjoyable to any and all that take the time to log on.
During AOR the "punishment" for running solo was that you didn't get the renown pops from WB heals and kills and you stood the chance of being flattened by premades, but it seems that there is actually a depreciated renown gain for solo players in ROR. Zone flips are less if solo, or in a small group (I regularly run in a group of 2). Kills have been rewarded with 1 RP, it all makes it less rewarding to even log on and play.
Last night, at about 11pm PST there were over 120 order on and no public WBs. Some tried to gather a WB only to have it half full, meaning a large percentage of players at the time didn't want to group up. You can't blame players that don't want to join a WB that is fail or when pop percentage is such that you're only going to run into a zerg that's going to mow you down. But we still need these players in game to make a "healthy" well rounded community for all players.
I have always stood up for the Pugs because I've realized this is where new players exist. Those that are new to their toons, unsure of how to spec, what rotations to have and with little knowledge of how their class fits into the society of playing on a team, they need to be able to participate, enjoy and receive enough rewards to keep their interest in the game. If not, population dwindles and sooner or later the game will be nothing but elites gathered together in a zone bashing heads until one dominates.
I recently got a friend, a player of AOR for over 5 years, to try RoR. He enjoyed it, UNTIL he hit lvl 16 and was thrust into battles with geared RR80 in uber-organized warbands. He tried to join only to be auto-band kicked because he was too low level (yes, even with his bolster) or because his DPS wasn't needed. I've experienced the same and it's really divisive, makes the game intolerable and creates the thought in the player that "I'm just not wanted". So a pug is born. Then there's the nasty habit of calling out players by name and trashing them because they aren't the best player. All of this only creates feelings of resentment, "why am I even trying" and performance anxiety, it destroys the game for them.
I could go on but I'll just leave it right here and wait for hopefully a productive conversation to commence. Or, I'll just watch as I'm trashed for expressing my thoughts and watch the game die just a little bit more.

100 % Agreed. When lazypeon(?) did the youtube video, i just cant understand why with 2000-3000k players online most of the time devs didnt separate T4 from T 2-3. I mean even now it's probably not too late to change it but if the change happened back then man this server would be much much more alive. Also reverting 24 aoe cap while making changes to the RVR system that makes bo's matter so fights would spread out and not be this pale shadow of a pvp that this game can be.

It is truly sad that most people in ror think that this shadow version of warhammer online is THE best possible one. People shouldnt solo mentality while not making some classes able to participate in rvr is mind boggling. When the " fix " happened to we/wh not able to hit 9 people with slice and made it 3 targets was another " why i mean really why ? " while you shouldnt solo. So much from original that made this game best pvp/rvr mmorpg to exist has been changed, little and big things. " Little " things like making ICD for kisses/prayers/covenants/procs and nerfing their dmg (removing ICD's and bringing back actual choices like old t4 epic quest wpn procs would make everything much more interesting) as well and nerfing pounce + wl to meh state. Wl should be able to jump to keep walls at some points if target is at the right spot. Why WL snare was originally 10 seconds long was shammy/SH and the fact that WL needs to be behind target to get most out of the class. Dont even get me started on the pet.. it really should receive grp heals/buffs so the class could actually be played like it was meant to be! Bringing more gear sets that is interesting(like old overlord/imperator) and that drops in scs & rvr and influence rewars from rvr (why not influence to scs + ranked scs as well?) At this point Red-eye should be lvl 30 set and removed from " must have for sentinel ". deva/duelist should be rank 24-26 Anni/Merce Should be 30-32 and conq/domi should be 35-40. This opens up new filler set for rr 45-rr55.

When most of the pvp here is avoiiding it while running boxes, why should we join those grps ? who btw will also kick you if you are not " meta " : D While these people really dont know much about the game and classes and that is the fault of the system, not the people because aor didnt have these issues, ror does. NOT SAYING AOR DIDNT HAVE ISSUES.
"To clarify, me asking to developers to go test their own changes is not sign of toxicity or anger, but a sign of hope that the people punching in the numbers remain aware of potential consequences and test their own changes"-Teefz

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arorwne
Posts: 176

Re: Punishment of the Pugs

Post#32 » Mon May 03, 2021 7:36 am

Asderas27 wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 6:40 am
Why is this post still up ? Imagine thinking game isn't pug friendly when the changes they have made are in fact helping solo and pug players. They changes the city queue system to help solo queues. You get same reward for solo queuing as you get for taking effort in forming a group. They made rvr bags drop royal crests. You can run boxes and get tokens which give access to BiS gear. They even made balanced solo queue sc for whiners complaining how they lose because they are not 2-2-2 not admitting ofc how **** they are at the game. They had to revert that change because same whiners complaining sc pops are not fast enough. Trash players using excuses like enemy is full sov when they see the cloak when most of them dont even understand how to play their own class. Complaining how xrealming ruins game and other ****. All excuses for own **** play and unwillingness to make effort. Everyone just wants to get gear for no effort, no time investment. Go play something else. Players who make posts like these leave after getting gear anyway.
But gear shouldn't matter in any serious PvP game. Or, alternatively, could be obtainable during the match, MOBA style. But the sheer verticality IS a problem. Not as much as on live, even prior to RR80+, but it still is a LARGE hurdle. Again, vertical progression and PvP = a BAD match.

Crossrealming I won't even comment. In a Realm based game...ok, you can't prove someone's crossrealming and giving a victory to the other side, but...I do understand it is very much a pop issue and they can't simply open up a second server and use hard faction locks like live.
Sinisterror wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 7:08 am
Topdude wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 6:22 pm
GamesBond wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:27 pm


The game rewards you for teaming up, it's advised everywhere and in any game mode. It also punishes you if you solo play and that's how it is, it's just how a PvP game is. Weekend SCs will remain open to everyone. Now whether you want to team up and increase your winning chance and rewards, or queue solo and get defeated often due to lack of organization, is up to you. The game itself and the social programs have facilitated communication and grouping for everyone, there's no way you'd miss a group/guild if you actually wanted to join.
I'm afraid I have to disagree. AOR never had the punishment toward solo/Pug players that the Devs of RoR are implementing.
Back in the day of "live" and back in the earlier years of RoR, pugs were the much needed "filler" of a realms' success. These days, as server pop has dwindled from it's highs of +2000 I see more and more players that prefer not to join groups for whatever reason. The Dev team should really take this into consideration and realize that the game needs to be enjoyable to any and all that take the time to log on.
During AOR the "punishment" for running solo was that you didn't get the renown pops from WB heals and kills and you stood the chance of being flattened by premades, but it seems that there is actually a depreciated renown gain for solo players in ROR. Zone flips are less if solo, or in a small group (I regularly run in a group of 2). Kills have been rewarded with 1 RP, it all makes it less rewarding to even log on and play.
Last night, at about 11pm PST there were over 120 order on and no public WBs. Some tried to gather a WB only to have it half full, meaning a large percentage of players at the time didn't want to group up. You can't blame players that don't want to join a WB that is fail or when pop percentage is such that you're only going to run into a zerg that's going to mow you down. But we still need these players in game to make a "healthy" well rounded community for all players.
I have always stood up for the Pugs because I've realized this is where new players exist. Those that are new to their toons, unsure of how to spec, what rotations to have and with little knowledge of how their class fits into the society of playing on a team, they need to be able to participate, enjoy and receive enough rewards to keep their interest in the game. If not, population dwindles and sooner or later the game will be nothing but elites gathered together in a zone bashing heads until one dominates.
I recently got a friend, a player of AOR for over 5 years, to try RoR. He enjoyed it, UNTIL he hit lvl 16 and was thrust into battles with geared RR80 in uber-organized warbands. He tried to join only to be auto-band kicked because he was too low level (yes, even with his bolster) or because his DPS wasn't needed. I've experienced the same and it's really divisive, makes the game intolerable and creates the thought in the player that "I'm just not wanted". So a pug is born. Then there's the nasty habit of calling out players by name and trashing them because they aren't the best player. All of this only creates feelings of resentment, "why am I even trying" and performance anxiety, it destroys the game for them.
I could go on but I'll just leave it right here and wait for hopefully a productive conversation to commence. Or, I'll just watch as I'm trashed for expressing my thoughts and watch the game die just a little bit more.

100 % Agreed. When lazypeon(?) did the youtube video, i just cant understand why with 2000-3000k players online most of the time devs didnt separate T4 from T 2-3. I mean even now it's probably not too late to change it but if the change happened back then man this server would be much much more alive. Also reverting 24 aoe cap while making changes to the RVR system that makes bo's matter so fights would spread out and not be this pale shadow of a pvp that this game can be.

It is truly sad that most people in ror think that this shadow version of warhammer online is THE best possible one. People shouldnt solo mentality while not making some classes able to participate in rvr is mind boggling. When the " fix " happened to we/wh not able to hit 9 people with slice and made it 3 targets was another " why i mean really why ? " while you shouldnt solo. So much from original that made this game best pvp/rvr mmorpg to exist has been changed, little and big things. " Little " things like making ICD for kisses/prayers/covenants/procs and nerfing their dmg (removing ICD's and bringing back actual choices like old t4 epic quest wpn procs would make everything much more interesting) as well and nerfing pounce + wl to meh state. Wl should be able to jump to keep walls at some points if target is at the right spot. Why WL snare was originally 10 seconds long was shammy/SH and the fact that WL needs to be behind target to get most out of the class. Dont even get me started on the pet.. it really should receive grp heals/buffs so the class could actually be played like it was meant to be! Bringing more gear sets that is interesting(like old overlord/imperator) and that drops in scs & rvr and influence rewars from rvr (why not influence to scs + ranked scs as well?)

When most of the pvp here is avoiiding it while running boxes, why should we join those grps ? who btw will also kick you if you are not " meta " : D While these people really dont know much about the game and classes and that is the fault of the system, not the people because aor didnt have these issues, ror does. NOT SAYING AOR DIDNT HAVE ISSUES.
Yes, these boxes are quite shocking. Boring, braindead chore. Not to mention that, often, there are TWO zones open at any time, meaning the old musical keeps and trading still does happen. That is NOT what PvP is about, damn it! But I don't think it's as much a dev problem as it is a Warhammer Online problem. Did RoR make some questionable changes? Yes. The question is: why and what lead to them happening. But, I firmly believe, it is in the best intentions due to vox populi and they are simply limited by both manpower and the quality of base material(=WAR) they have to work with.

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Toshutkidup
Posts: 445
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Re: Punishment of the Pugs

Post#33 » Mon May 03, 2021 7:57 am

As a person that started to solo @RR53 and is now RR91 I will give my POV insight. I actually feel several changes have BENEFITED solo players. Biggest is when they removed malice calc in 1v1 fights. 2nd shards ( invader or royal) many people know I quit all cities on all my toon in April 2020 and this shard system helped me a lot. They also removed penalty in SC’s to gain rr pts, so that’s another win. So I don’t see my self quit the solo game anytime soon. Do Devs / GM’s support solo players.. eh not really but honestly how can they and I think changes have already been made that helped us / me a lot already so I’m fine with it.
First RR90 Slayer working towards the top of the mountain. NOT Full Sov, NO Bloodlord , Riposte spec and I still solo

Twitch:https://www.twitch.tv/toshutkidup
My Youtube http://www.youtube.com/c/Toshutkidup

arorwne
Posts: 176

Re: Punishment of the Pugs

Post#34 » Mon May 03, 2021 9:01 am

Toshutkidup wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 7:57 am
As a person that started to solo @RR53 and is now RR91 I will give my POV insight. I actually feel several changes have BENEFITED solo players. Biggest is when they removed malice calc in 1v1 fights. 2nd shards ( invader or royal) many people know I quit all cities on all my toon in April 2020 and this shard system helped me a lot. They also removed penalty in SC’s to gain rr pts, so that’s another win. So I don’t see my self quit the solo game anytime soon. Do Devs / GM’s support solo players.. eh not really but honestly how can they and I think changes have already been made that helped us / me a lot already so I’m fine with it.
Again, it is not about what it is, but how it is presented. Devs used rather aggressive words(=solo / pugs are a "problem" etc). Without that, I don't think half of this discussion would be had.

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Toshutkidup
Posts: 445
Contact:

Re: Punishment of the Pugs

Post#35 » Mon May 03, 2021 9:05 am

arorwne wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:01 am
Toshutkidup wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 7:57 am
As a person that started to solo @RR53 and is now RR91 I will give my POV insight. I actually feel several changes have BENEFITED solo players. Biggest is when they removed malice calc in 1v1 fights. 2nd shards ( invader or royal) many people know I quit all cities on all my toon in April 2020 and this shard system helped me a lot. They also removed penalty in SC’s to gain rr pts, so that’s another win. So I don’t see my self quit the solo game anytime soon. Do Devs / GM’s support solo players.. eh not really but honestly how can they and I think changes have already been made that helped us / me a lot already so I’m fine with it.
Again, it is not about what it is, but how it is presented. Devs used rather aggressive words(=solo / pugs are a "problem" etc). Without that, I don't think half of this discussion would be had.

Eh who cares about words. Play the game and ignore words imo.
First RR90 Slayer working towards the top of the mountain. NOT Full Sov, NO Bloodlord , Riposte spec and I still solo

Twitch:https://www.twitch.tv/toshutkidup
My Youtube http://www.youtube.com/c/Toshutkidup

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mathousalix6
Posts: 61

Re: Punishment of the Pugs

Post#36 » Mon May 03, 2021 10:15 am

I got sick of this constant group play. I am working all day long and I have limited time. I have no energy to focus myself on listening to other people and be super focused. Solo playing was horrible so I just decided to quit the game and go do something more chill and fun. This game after level 16 felt like I am being part in some sort of military recruitment with guilds judging if you are a good player in order to keep you and testing you through trials like it is a competition and not a game...

BelligerentBob
Posts: 87

Re: Punishment of the Pugs

Post#37 » Mon May 03, 2021 11:01 am

Ugh after surviving Dark Crag and Ruin, PUGs are a necessary evil. They aren't standing around waiting for Lutz or Tsu to log on and herd them, they're living breathing people with complex lives. Your realm's ability to herd these players dictates your success.

That said, we have two solo friendly scenarios, the weekly PUG and Solo Ranked. I would love to see the weekend live events become more like Ranked where there is the Solo Ranked queue and premade/direct challenge queue awarding 50% more exp. Give the PUGs a chance at completing the LE :D
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tazdingo
Posts: 683

Re: Punishment of the Pugs

Post#38 » Mon May 03, 2021 12:03 pm

solo/pug is fine... i too am put off when i'm invited to a guild and the first thing they do is point me to an incredibly strict cookie cutter class and build guide. if you're trying to make something off-meta work you accept that it's gonna much more challenging and slow to develop

prems are not indestructible, anyone who saw city last night knows this, and solo ranked is always a constant goal. this game is very loner friendly, you just have to put the work in. the only thing i think has directly weakened pug play is the removal of certain out-of-group stuff. like dire shielding, which i agree seemed unnecessary on the surface

i also play after work, cba with commitments and largely treat this game as an immersive battle simulator with extreme character progression, but when i do want something more serious i have literally never had a bad experience with a 6man pug in 7 years, discord makes everything way easier these days and solo ranked is always there as a summit

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emiliorv
Posts: 1166

Re: Punishment of the Pugs

Post#39 » Mon May 03, 2021 3:55 pm

Topdude wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 6:22 pm
GamesBond wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:27 pm


The game rewards you for teaming up, it's advised everywhere and in any game mode.
This isnt true => the change of city matchmaking punished directly to /5 warbands....And i still wondering wtf you did than change only to cater solo players

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Akalukz
Posts: 1029

Re: Punishment of the Pugs

Post#40 » Mon May 03, 2021 4:36 pm

Sinisterror wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 7:08 am
Spoiler:
Topdude wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 6:22 pm
GamesBond wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:27 pm


The game rewards you for teaming up, it's advised everywhere and in any game mode. It also punishes you if you solo play and that's how it is, it's just how a PvP game is. Weekend SCs will remain open to everyone. Now whether you want to team up and increase your winning chance and rewards, or queue solo and get defeated often due to lack of organization, is up to you. The game itself and the social programs have facilitated communication and grouping for everyone, there's no way you'd miss a group/guild if you actually wanted to join.
I'm afraid I have to disagree. AOR never had the punishment toward solo/Pug players that the Devs of RoR are implementing.
Back in the day of "live" and back in the earlier years of RoR, pugs were the much needed "filler" of a realms' success. These days, as server pop has dwindled from it's highs of +2000 I see more and more players that prefer not to join groups for whatever reason. The Dev team should really take this into consideration and realize that the game needs to be enjoyable to any and all that take the time to log on.
During AOR the "punishment" for running solo was that you didn't get the renown pops from WB heals and kills and you stood the chance of being flattened by premades, but it seems that there is actually a depreciated renown gain for solo players in ROR. Zone flips are less if solo, or in a small group (I regularly run in a group of 2). Kills have been rewarded with 1 RP, it all makes it less rewarding to even log on and play.
Last night, at about 11pm PST there were over 120 order on and no public WBs. Some tried to gather a WB only to have it half full, meaning a large percentage of players at the time didn't want to group up. You can't blame players that don't want to join a WB that is fail or when pop percentage is such that you're only going to run into a zerg that's going to mow you down. But we still need these players in game to make a "healthy" well rounded community for all players.
I have always stood up for the Pugs because I've realized this is where new players exist. Those that are new to their toons, unsure of how to spec, what rotations to have and with little knowledge of how their class fits into the society of playing on a team, they need to be able to participate, enjoy and receive enough rewards to keep their interest in the game. If not, population dwindles and sooner or later the game will be nothing but elites gathered together in a zone bashing heads until one dominates.
I recently got a friend, a player of AOR for over 5 years, to try RoR. He enjoyed it, UNTIL he hit lvl 16 and was thrust into battles with geared RR80 in uber-organized warbands. He tried to join only to be auto-band kicked because he was too low level (yes, even with his bolster) or because his DPS wasn't needed. I've experienced the same and it's really divisive, makes the game intolerable and creates the thought in the player that "I'm just not wanted". So a pug is born. Then there's the nasty habit of calling out players by name and trashing them because they aren't the best player. All of this only creates feelings of resentment, "why am I even trying" and performance anxiety, it destroys the game for them.
I could go on but I'll just leave it right here and wait for hopefully a productive conversation to commence. Or, I'll just watch as I'm trashed for expressing my thoughts and watch the game die just a little bit more.
100 % Agreed. When lazypeon(?) did the youtube video, i just cant understand why with 2000-3000k players online most of the time devs didnt separate T4 from T 2-3. I mean even now it's probably not too late to change it but if the change happened back then man this server would be much much more alive. Also reverting 24 aoe cap while making changes to the RVR system that makes bo's matter so fights would spread out and not be this pale shadow of a pvp that this game can be.

It is truly sad that most people in ror think that this shadow version of warhammer online is THE best possible one. People shouldnt solo mentality while not making some classes able to participate in rvr is mind boggling. When the " fix " happened to we/wh not able to hit 9 people with slice and made it 3 targets was another " why i mean really why ? " while you shouldnt solo. So much from original that made this game best pvp/rvr mmorpg to exist has been changed, little and big things. " Little " things like making ICD for kisses/prayers/covenants/procs and nerfing their dmg (removing ICD's and bringing back actual choices like old t4 epic quest wpn procs would make everything much more interesting) as well and nerfing pounce + wl to meh state. Wl should be able to jump to keep walls at some points if target is at the right spot. Why WL snare was originally 10 seconds long was shammy/SH and the fact that WL needs to be behind target to get most out of the class. Dont even get me started on the pet.. it really should receive grp heals/buffs so the class could actually be played like it was meant to be! Bringing more gear sets that is interesting(like old overlord/imperator) and that drops in scs & rvr and influence rewars from rvr (why not influence to scs + ranked scs as well?) At this point Red-eye should be lvl 30 set and removed from " must have for sentinel ". deva/duelist should be rank 24-26 Anni/Merce Should be 30-32 and conq/domi should be 35-40. This opens up new filler set for rr 45-rr55.

When most of the pvp here is avoiiding it while running boxes, why should we join those grps ? who btw will also kick you if you are not " meta " : D While these people really dont know much about the game and classes and that is the fault of the system, not the people because aor didnt have these issues, ror does. NOT SAYING AOR DIDNT HAVE ISSUES.
Man a lot of this makes sense to old time players. Been saying for years, you don't want solo/small groups make all classes viable. I haven't played my W/E since the "bug fix" that nerfed it in the current RvR game. Gear needs to be pushed down to allow people to get into Vanq / Invader as quickly as possible, and this is still 2-3 sets lower than "bis" Quit blocking new players from succeeding. I have no desire to join a wb and follow it around from a bo to a a keep in an empty zone for box renown, yet I am the problem.
-= Agony =-

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