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Parry vs Block math

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Klod91
Posts: 95

Parry vs Block math

Post#1 » Tue May 18, 2021 7:50 pm

Talking from the pov of a kotbs:

So when I got my Sent Ring, and since I'm doing ranked, I sloted a 6% Parry tali into it.
Now, when I'm running with snb, I have a choice between using my old 2% Block ring or 6% Parry Sentinel Ring.

Currently I'm at 37% Block and 35% Parry after using Shield Rush + Coordination Tactic (none of the above mentioned rings used with these values).
I asked on discord which of the rings would be better. From my experience, the only time I die is when my guardee and me are caught in the destro blob and I'm eating massive guard damage as well as aoe/morales around us. My reasoning was that 6% Parry should be better than 2% block since things that I face most often are guard dmg and melee aoe.

Kind people tried to explain to me that 2% would be better, and at first I thought that I understood their reasoning, but now that I tried to do some math with it I admitt I failed at it.

Mabye somone here could do some descriptive math to help me understand which one is better. Would appreciate your help.

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Sarnai
Posts: 199

Re: Parry vs Block math

Post#2 » Tue May 18, 2021 8:47 pm

I was under the impression that if you're snb then all you should worry about is block. Block takes the place of parry/dodge/disrupt so if you have a shield then just pump block as much as you can. I'm not a tank main though so my understanding could be incorrect.
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tazdingo
Posts: 1199

Re: Parry vs Block math

Post#3 » Tue May 18, 2021 10:02 pm

guard dmg, regardless of the source, can be block or parried. you roll block and if that fails, you roll parry. as parry is easier and cheaper to stack than block (renown giving 18 vs 10 for the same points, average tactics/buffs giving 25 vs 10) it's often better to stack parry than block if your main concern is mitigating guard dmg

that doesn't answer the question though, honestly i have no idea if there's some weird math reason that +2 on the first roll is better than +6 on the second. i believe strikethrough is now rolled on guard, so maybe the idea is that reduced chance to be parried is more common than reduced chance to be blocked. honestly guard has undergone so many changes that even when trawling past 2 years of changelogs i don't think i have a complete understanding of it

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BluIzLucky
Posts: 691

Re: Parry vs Block math

Post#4 » Tue May 18, 2021 11:01 pm

Let's do example.
You have 37% block and 35% parry.
You take 100 melee hits.
37 will be blocked, of the remaining 63 hits 22 will be parried.
Vs 41% at 25.8
In this case adding 6% parry gave 3.8% reduced hits.
In game it will be a distribution of different types of hits.. 2% block reduces dmg by 2% regardless.
If 50% of the defendable dmg you take is melee/parriable the above 3.8% halves to 1.9%.

And then there's the block calc:
Block rating / attack stat * 40 (max 50%) + (base block - block strike through)

This means your actual block chance might be 0-50% higher and completely eat into the efficiency of parry.
E.g. Best case you sit at 87% block, adding 6%parry will now reduce MELEE dmg less than 1%. While 2% block still reduces overall dmg by 2%.
So.. You'd generally want to stack high block as it makes parry/disrupt/dodge redundant, and leaves room for more block reduction, in this case it will probably come down to if you want Sent set bonus.

Disclaimer: this might be completely wrong... I'm up too late.. Lol..
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tazdingo
Posts: 1199

Re: Parry vs Block math

Post#5 » Tue May 18, 2021 11:13 pm

i think he's asking specifically about guard dmg, for which block & parry are basically the same as even ranged sources of guard dmg can be blocked/parried as the dmg is always applied as a melee hit, you never roll dodge/disrupt, ever. again this is just my latest understanding

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vanbuinen77
Posts: 222

Re: Parry vs Block math

Post#6 » Tue May 18, 2021 11:56 pm

You want block.

It blocks melee, ranged, and magic damage.

So its worth 3 stats.

Parry only blocks melee.
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Dabbart
Posts: 2248

Re: Parry vs Block math

Post#7 » Wed May 19, 2021 12:11 am

Why not both? If you're open roaming and fighting blobs, slot the parry to avoid the sheer amount of guard damage. If instanced, then swap depending on what you're fighting. If guard damage and general Zergs are the only things killing you, then the choice is largely irrelevant, since you're probably going to die w/o a defensive morale regardless of a few % either way.

The only real benefit to stacking Block over Parry, is offset by using HtL, as increasing your ranged defenses by 45% is far better vs that damage than a few extra block %. As a knight, your Parry/Block are relatively similar, so arguing for one over the other is tough, other tanks have much more singular evasion benefits.

TLDR: I would stack Parry for most cases. Swapping to Block for a city/SC against a heavy ranged/magic group.
Last edited by Dabbart on Wed May 19, 2021 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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abezverkhiy
Posts: 551

Re: Parry vs Block math

Post#8 » Wed May 19, 2021 12:12 am

On my IB I have around 40 block and that's the only defensive stat I really care about because of the diminishing returns on parry, dodge and disrupt. I mean I have them but do not bother to maximize them
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BluIzLucky
Posts: 691

Re: Parry vs Block math

Post#9 » Wed May 19, 2021 5:02 am

Dabbart wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 12:11 am Why not both? If you're open roaming and fighting blobs, slot the parry to avoid the sheer amount of guard damage. If instanced, then swap depending on what you're fighting. If guard damage and general Zergs are the only things killing you, then the choice is largely irrelevant, since you're probably going to die w/o a defensive morale regardless of a few % either way.

The only real benefit to stacking Block over Parry, is offset by using HtL, as increasing your ranged defenses by 45% is far better vs that damage than a few extra block %. As a knight, your Parry/Block are relatively similar, so arguing for one over the other is tough, other tanks have much more singular evasion benefits.

TLDR: I would stack Parry for most cases. Swapping to Block for a city/SC against a heavy ranged/magic group.
Show da maaath.. To support parry over block please, as others mention snb guard is still by b/p/d/d :)

You probably need to take +70% melee dmg to make 6% parry even out with 2% block.. Not even talking about vs the 6% block.

And you can't run both since there's only 4 slots.

Here's the actual (high level) formula for parry:
Not Block % * not parry % * melee dmg % * dmg % after mitigation (viligilance/bellow/armor/etc..)

E.g. 35% parry:
0.5 block * 0.65 parry * 0.7 melee * 0.5 mitigation = 0.11375
And 41%:
0.5 * 0.59 * 0.7 * 0.5 = 0.10325

Results in 1% overall dmg reduction.

Now block calc:
Not block % * dmg % after mitigation

E. G. 50% block:
0.5*0.5 = 0.25

Vs 52%:
0.48 * 0.5 = 0.24

Also 1% reduction.

You can play with variables to fit your case, maybe you take 90% melee and only have 20% mitigation, in which case parry improves.

Again not claiming to be 100% right.. But just some top of the head thinking
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Dabbart
Posts: 2248

Re: Parry vs Block math

Post#10 » Wed May 19, 2021 5:59 am

Spoiler:
BluIzLucky wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 5:02 am Show da maaath.. To support parry over block please, as others mention snb guard is still by b/p/d/d :)

You probably need to take +70% melee dmg to make 6% parry even out with 2% block.. Not even talking about vs the 6% block.

And you can't run both since there's only 4 slots.

Here's the actual (high level) formula for parry:
Not Block % * not parry % * melee dmg % * dmg % after mitigation (viligilance/bellow/armor/etc..)

E.g. 35% parry:
0.5 block * 0.65 parry * 0.7 melee * 0.5 mitigation = 0.11375
And 41%:
0.5 * 0.59 * 0.7 * 0.5 = 0.10325

Results in 1% overall dmg reduction.

Now block calc:
Not block % * dmg % after mitigation

E. G. 50% block:
0.5*0.5 = 0.25

Vs 52%:
0.48 * 0.5 = 0.24

Also 1% reduction.

You can play with variables to fit your case, maybe you take 90% melee and only have 20% mitigation, in which case parry improves.

Again not claiming to be 100% right.. But just some top of the head thinking
What're you, my **** math teacher telling me to show my work?

A, Your "formula" is whack. On many levels. You're just picking arbitrary numbers, and even then you're looking at the same 1% difference between the 2. Guard damage is not lowered by ability damage reducers like Challenge, Vigilance, or Detaunt btw. Morales lessen it though. Plus there are undefendables, times when you get debuff stacked(how many parry debuffs in the game? how many for block?), strike-through(plenty of mdps have parry strike-through on gear, how much block strike through?), what % of the damage coming at you is from guard vs AoE? etc. Plus, the old fashioned you get punted and enemy Z tries to stagger you. How much would you trade for an extra 2% chance to NOT be stuck 100ft+ from your team for 6s? Hard to quantify these in a 4piece formula...

2, And no, SnB tanks don't need DD anymore(imo). Dodge/Disrupt is irrelevant for guard, and you have HtL. Why would you burn 20RR on DD? I mean if you want too, but KotBS don't have to fight BWs or AMs. Sham/Sorc/Magus/Z stagger doesn't seem like a good reason to burn 20rr on a tank to me. But I haven't played since TB was reinput. But the build is slightly open. Especially, when as the OP said, they only really die to mass guard damage/zerg swarms. So, 1% either way means **** all.

D, I don't care enough to theory-craft the exact amount of melee/guard vs magic/ranged damage required. Since, y'know, we're just making up the numbers, and this game has a frightening amount of variables at times.


TLDR: Personally, I stack whichever I can get the highest. I prefer Block for the reasons you stated, and I get why you are trying to say Block is king, but if you can get Parry high enough, you literally don't need Block, hence 2h tanks. So...

(Bonus points if you get the A, 2, and D reference)


Edit: Check this post out It's super old, and is a comparison of 2h vs SnB evasion rates, plus other stuff. I argued against some of the take-aways, but Annaise16 knew their ****. The block/parry formulas are probably out of date, but it's still a good breakdown, and might offer you a better system to formulate the math you're looking for. But you gotta look at more than just raw block/parry %s.
Azarael wrote: It's only a nerf if you're bad.

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Secrets wrote: Kindly adjust your attitude to actually help the community and do not impose your will on it. You aren't as powerful as you think.

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