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Melee bombing

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tvbrowntown
Suspended
Posts: 272

Re: Melee bombing

Post#21 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:24 pm

Earthcake wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:42 pm
tvbrowntown wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:55 pm
Earthcake wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:20 pm

In the middle of nowhere you are right.
But if there is any kind of objective the SW has to be around...
No, let your tank hold the BO and get 60 ft or more out of the way. If you don't have a tank then why are you there?
You do know that organised warband stay together right ? And hate "snaking".
MAYBE they are right and staying together is the better way to play the game.

Or we could all follow your logic, every destro DPS wait in the ramps during fort, only go up when it's time to enter lord room so they cannot receive any BHA...
SW + Tank vs Choppa @ BO.
SW vs Choppa @ BO.

How did you perform the mental gymnastics to come to understand my perspective about pushing a fort from this?

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Parallell86
Posts: 241

Re: Melee bombing

Post#22 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:51 pm

You have range snare. Choppa use Shrug it off. CD til next year. You snare him again when getting too close with Whirling Pin ability. His shrug it off is still on KD, he try to compensate with Charge, you use KD. Choppa gone. No more tricks. No more utility.

How did you do in the mental gymnastics from choppa point of view? Choppa NEED GTDC pull. I beleive you can grab one of those yourself.

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Earthcake
Posts: 251

Re: Melee bombing

Post#23 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:52 pm

tvbrowntown wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:24 pm
Spoiler:
Earthcake wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:42 pm
tvbrowntown wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:55 pm

No, let your tank hold the BO and get 60 ft or more out of the way. If you don't have a tank then why are you there?
You do know that organised warband stay together right ? And hate "snaking".
MAYBE they are right and staying together is the better way to play the game.

Or we could all follow your logic, every destro DPS wait in the ramps during fort, only go up when it's time to enter lord room so they cannot receive any BHA...
SW + Tank vs Choppa @ BO.
SW vs Choppa @ BO.

How did you perform the mental gymnastics to come to understand my perspective about pushing a fort from this?

Image

Do you need a hand getting one of these?
Your logic is : if you don t go near the enemy, you do not risk anything.
Which is very true, just not relevant cause not possible if you want to have anything done in an objective based game.
I just applied it to fort. If you find it ridiculous there, well, it is because IT IS ridiculous.

emiliorv
Suspended
Posts: 1295

Re: Melee bombing

Post#24 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:51 pm

If you play order at least can block and parry the melee dmg and the tank guarding you can block and parry too....

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Asherdoom
Posts: 661

Re: Melee bombing

Post#25 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:55 pm

Earthcake wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:52 pm
tvbrowntown wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:24 pm
Spoiler:
Earthcake wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:42 pm

You do know that organised warband stay together right ? And hate "snaking".
MAYBE they are right and staying together is the better way to play the game.

Or we could all follow your logic, every destro DPS wait in the ramps during fort, only go up when it's time to enter lord room so they cannot receive any BHA...
SW + Tank vs Choppa @ BO.
SW vs Choppa @ BO.

How did you perform the mental gymnastics to come to understand my perspective about pushing a fort from this?

Image

Do you need a hand getting one of these?
Your logic is : if you don t go near the enemy, you do not risk anything.
Which is very true, just not relevant cause not possible if you want to have anything done in an objective based game.
I just applied it to fort. If you find it ridiculous there, well, it is because IT IS ridiculous.
honestly i never understood the logic: proper positioning. How the hell you position inside a keep ? XD or citadel when you turtle inside the room
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Justina
Posts: 65

Re: Melee bombing

Post#26 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:39 pm

tazdingo wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:25 pm
MMXX43 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:37 pm What is really broken in this game is the amount of times you are getting pulled by maras and choppas while order has not really working pull at all.
half of order are engineers, but none of them are stupid enough to spec pull because the other half are SWs
@regarding pulls:
The mirror of the engi pull is the magus pull. Both pulls are not that great, they are in a bad tree and the pull is delayed. When trying to catch people it is not the right tool.

That leaves destro with two good working pulls on Mara and Choppas vs one bad working pull on the buggy WL pet.

The choppa pull is unique in the way that it is instant. You can pull people jumping off a wall or bridge right back up, you can pull WHs/SWs using their escape knock back instantly back, you can pull people accross fences where you cant even jump over, you can pull them down form higher terrain and you can pull people out of the water and out through keep doors in an instant. You say that it is random, yeah, but if there is only one target then it is a 100% garanteed pull of that target. In all other cases it wont matter... you get one target to kill right next to you.

Git to da choppa is not just one ability because it does 4 things with 1 button press: aoe damage, pull, interrupt and 20% speed boost and there is no way to avoid it. Rampage you can disspell, pulls you basically cant avoid.

A pull is also much stronger than a pounce because when you pull someone you pull it right to your allies and all gonna hit that target. When you use pounce you are the only one at the target and everyone else is far behind. Therefore a pull is in 9 out of 10 cases a free kill and a pounce is only in a few cases a kill. How good is rampage when you cant reach your target?

@melee bombing:
When BWs where bombing they had to build up their energy first, they had to run in with cloth armor, their mechanic was damaging them while doing damage and they had not charge or pull or escape mechanic. That's a lot different compared to melee dps spamming aoe. Because they wear better armor, have higher levels of parry/disrupt/dodge, can knock you down or pull and have charge to hunt you down or escape. All in an instant, without building up energy or self hurting mechanic. That looks to me like an improved version of BWs bombing.

I actually surprised that nobody brought up the range of the melee aoe. Doing 40ft frontal aoe damage as melee to everybody in front, stackable with no limit seems pretty overpowered to me.

The real question here is: "Why does a melee class have 40ft range?". No matter if aoe or single target, 40ft is by far too much for any melee class, let alone the pulls, knock back, charge and what else they can do.

User avatar
NSKaneda
Posts: 968

Re: Melee bombing

Post#27 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:46 pm

Asherdoom wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:55 pm
Spoiler:
Earthcake wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:52 pm
tvbrowntown wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:24 pm
Spoiler:

SW + Tank vs Choppa @ BO.
SW vs Choppa @ BO.

How did you perform the mental gymnastics to come to understand my perspective about pushing a fort from this?

Image

Do you need a hand getting one of these?
Your logic is : if you don t go near the enemy, you do not risk anything.
Which is very true, just not relevant cause not possible if you want to have anything done in an objective based game.
I just applied it to fort. If you find it ridiculous there, well, it is because IT IS ridiculous.
honestly i never understood the logic: proper positioning. How the hell you position inside a keep ? XD or citadel when you turtle inside the room

At the risk of stating the obvious: tanks on sides of the gate, melee behind them (typically you want your main blob on the side of small ramp and debuffers on the big ramp side), healers on small ramp (together with long range aoe) with small melee detachment guarding posters and main rdps on big ramp side so they keep in check both main and postern.

You have walls and columns to break line of sight (they also indicate range of spells), tanks in strategic places to cover all with Hold the Line, kill zones and debuff detachment that can support either main or postern depending on a situation. 3rd floor snipers to shut down enemy heals (and one or two mass aoe to provide pressure, rather engies/magi than BWs/Sorcs).

Attacking side sets up their long range to keep heals in check, snipers keep an eye on 3rd and shut down called targets, tanks generate morale by htling and so on.

If you let your mdps or rdps get away from htl cover then they will become dot-infested disease carriers that will carry their dots to safe spots once they see that their HP is going down (aka why is my backliner hidden in a corner getting hit by engie/sw/magus dots...).
RoR: Burszui SH, Ropopuch SHM<|[]|>Ginnar IB, Vidarr HMR, Runatyr RP ++ REV guild ++
Live: Karak Izor -> Karak Norn - Yarpaen IB, Ginnarr SL, Volundr ENG +Ithilmar's Chosen+
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Collision
Posts: 127

Re: Melee bombing

Post#28 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:54 pm

Justina wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:39 pm
Git to da choppa is not just one ability because it does 4 things with 1 button press: aoe damage, pull, interrupt and 20% speed boost and there is no way to avoid it. Rampage you can disspell, pulls you basically cant avoid.
You can ST taunt, bump, ST/aoe pull, aoe/ST stagger or stun to stop GTDC it's not like it's hard to see the skill used by a Choppa...

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CountTalabecland
Posts: 979

Re: Melee bombing

Post#29 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:17 pm

Collision wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:54 pm
Justina wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:39 pm
Git to da choppa is not just one ability because it does 4 things with 1 button press: aoe damage, pull, interrupt and 20% speed boost and there is no way to avoid it. Rampage you can disspell, pulls you basically cant avoid.
You can ST taunt, bump, ST/aoe pull, aoe/ST stagger or stun to stop GTDC it's not like it's hard to see the skill used by a Choppa...
You can’t interrupt the first pull bc it is instant. So if we’re talking 1v1 SW attempting to kite Choppa, Choppa can guarantee at least a couple gcd of melee before SW self-punts away. Then its a question of whether choppa snared and can catch SW before dying. Obviously gear and rr weigh heavily on who wins.
Brynnoth Goldenbeard (40/80) (IB) -- Rundin Fireheart (40/50) (RP) -- Ungrinn (40/40) (Engi)-- Bramm Bloodaxe (40/83) (Slayer) and a few Empire characters here or there, maybe even an elf.

User avatar
tazdingo
Posts: 1199

Re: Melee bombing

Post#30 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:23 pm

Justina wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:39 pm
tazdingo wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:25 pm
MMXX43 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:37 pm What is really broken in this game is the amount of times you are getting pulled by maras and choppas while order has not really working pull at all.
half of order are engineers, but none of them are stupid enough to spec pull because the other half are SWs
@regarding pulls:
The mirror of the engi pull is the magus pull. Both pulls are not that great, they are in a bad tree and the pull is delayed. When trying to catch people it is not the right tool.

That leaves destro with two good working pulls on Mara and Choppas vs one bad working pull on the buggy WL pet.

The choppa pull is unique in the way that it is instant. You can pull people jumping off a wall or bridge right back up, you can pull WHs/SWs using their escape knock back instantly back, you can pull people accross fences where you cant even jump over, you can pull them down form higher terrain and you can pull people out of the water and out through keep doors in an instant. You say that it is random, yeah, but if there is only one target then it is a 100% garanteed pull of that target. In all other cases it wont matter... you get one target to kill right next to you.

Git to da choppa is not just one ability because it does 4 things with 1 button press: aoe damage, pull, interrupt and 20% speed boost and there is no way to avoid it. Rampage you can disspell, pulls you basically cant avoid.

A pull is also much stronger than a pounce because when you pull someone you pull it right to your allies and all gonna hit that target. When you use pounce you are the only one at the target and everyone else is far behind. Therefore a pull is in 9 out of 10 cases a free kill and a pounce is only in a few cases a kill. How good is rampage when you cant reach your target?

@melee bombing:
When BWs where bombing they had to build up their energy first, they had to run in with cloth armor, their mechanic was damaging them while doing damage and they had not charge or pull or escape mechanic. That's a lot different compared to melee dps spamming aoe. Because they wear better armor, have higher levels of parry/disrupt/dodge, can knock you down or pull and have charge to hunt you down or escape. All in an instant, without building up energy or self hurting mechanic. That looks to me like an improved version of BWs bombing.

I actually surprised that nobody brought up the range of the melee aoe. Doing 40ft frontal aoe damage as melee to everybody in front, stackable with no limit seems pretty overpowered to me.

The real question here is: "Why does a melee class have 40ft range?". No matter if aoe or single target, 40ft is by far too much for any melee class, let alone the pulls, knock back, charge and what else they can do.

ok remove gtdc and give choppa rampage
i feel like we're entering the alt end times, order literally wants destro to lose everything so they can finally win the war and just pve and wander the lakes in peace
how anyone can look at the current state of rvr and say destro needs a nerf. order needs to stop stacking solo rdps. they have the best aoe melee in the game and then complain about melee bombing. wtf is going on...

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