Resist debuff stacking [sorc/BW]

[Ramlaen]

Simply put it on bug tracker where it belongs.

BW tears and self pity are becoming a bit much.

The issue is the Sorc's debuff stacks, not that BW's doesn't.

[Fenris78]

Spoiler:

Shaman detaunt with free +5% disrupt + intel stealing base to ensure max survivability, WE' with 2 skills (one base, one middle tree) for debuffing / buffing 100+ stats when WH doesnt have equivalence (yeah armor debuff will never worth mobility+burst of the WE), SH with 2 base charge/flee skills (with non-interruptible one), Chosen +25% parry (20s for 15s cd, ofc) when SM one is 5s... the list can go on and on (now with maximum OPness on magical debuffs that are stacking for Destru but not for Order).

But you know... rampage is OP... :/

- 5% disrupt advantage? kind of joke or?.

If I'm not mistaken, the Shaman 5% disrupt on top of detaunt is still ingame, right ? And it is not mirrored to the AM detaunt (or any other for that matters), am I wrong ?

- how exactly does intel stealing improves survivability?

By reducing the magic damage you take ?

- left tree, not middle, the place where Repel Blasphemy is.

I meant "middle of the tree", so an affordable skill if you want. But ok on this point I agree RB is far superior.

- these two "debuffing / buffing 100+ stats" are exactly the same as triumphant 4th piece bonus, which is now bis, you know, and they do not stack,

So you are saying WE dont have to farm and equip a ranked set to get the same bonus, and can do it with base skill and 100% uptime instead of a 15% proc ? Sounds like a clear advantage here but I could be wrong.

- the one is not base and requires squig armor (so you cant shoot), the other one is only 30%, - regular snare has 40% movement speed reduction.

I'm not comparing charge bonus aganist snares, I'm comparing Destruction "hidden advantages" against their counterparts/mirrors.
And the two SH charges can be chained if I'm not mistaken ? Run away, squig armor, Outta My Way. So yes you'll have to go full melee tree but it also dont prevent you to use Run Away (And the tactic on top of that). While order got shitty speccable tactic on the SW, but I will let further discussion for another balance topic.

- Suppression has 10 sec cd and 15 sec uptime, EF has no cd and 5 sec uptime.

So it's an advantage since chosen dont has to place the buff every rotation unlike SM, and can do something useful during the 10s left, correct ?

Please be accurate when qqing

I think my points are pretty much accurate, was just pointing out the "hidden advantages" mentioned above.
Feel free to make valids counter-proposals.

Wanna trade rampage against decent hidden advantages + viable mdps classes Order side ; deal ?

yes please, any day of the week xd

I'll like to see less QQ about faction differences, Rampage, and start focusing on balancing mirror classes, making similar skills with similar "advantages" to balance them between classes, instead of going full mirror (wich wont be very interseting anyway).

Aside from "bugs" like OP mentioned, wich are legion (oddly enough mostly Destru side if I refer to old similar issues like Magus debuff stacking and such), inconsistency of stacking rules and discrepancies between Realm similar abilities (aforementioned, I forgot the Zealot tactic with corp debuff on top of armor, unlike the Runepriest counterpart) are really annoying and tbh I'm not even sure they are more than side-effects of all previous balance passes and buffs/nerfs over the time.

I cannot explain otherwise how we can have so much accumulated litle differences over the classes, wich globally make most Destru classes far more balanced, easy to play and ultimately, meta classes, because things here and there are much better accessible in tress / better distributed between classes or just better / added benefits over their Order counterparts.

On destru you can just stack litterally anything and it will works out of the bat : plenty rdps ? they synergize well together with both strong ST spec and working AoE when needed, plus magic damage everywhere. Plenty mdps ? Not an issue since you meatball and roll over every Order outta here (since they run mostly rdps anyway). Too much tanks ? Never a problem : they hit harder and got same/better survival in general, etc.

That's not cherrypicking to note every tiny bit of more polished skills, tactic distributions, survival options, wich look clearly more destruction-favored at the moment.
But anyway I could be wrong, prove me I am, just don't hold the "Rampage OP" flag to justify the only thing Order got better (ar least dps-wise).

[Gatto]

Simply put it on bug tracker where it belongs.

BW tears and self pity are becoming a bit much.

The issue is the Sorc's debuff stacks, not that BW's doesn't. But good effort at trying to shift the topic.

nope, the issue is sorc tact work as intended and bw dont, easier solution is to fix ignition tact to stack as it should.

[Fenris78]

Simply put it on bug tracker where it belongs.

BW tears and self pity are becoming a bit much.

The issue is the Sorc's debuff stacks, not that BW's doesn't. But good effort at trying to shift the topic.

nope, the issue is sorc tact work as intended and bw dont, easier solution is to fix ignition tact to stack as it should.

So you agree getting -800 magic resistance should exist at all, and is desirable for a class hitting for 3k+ damage on single skill ?

Friendly reminder, magic resistances are capped to 660, and divided b 3 after that (instead of 2 for every other stat).
Furthermore, magic resistances will only get you about 40-45% MAX mitigation without debuff, while armor cannot be less than 25% mitigation after debuff.

I see a clear balance issue, for a realm with 2 magic rdps with good synergies.
Same is valid if 2 BW could stack their debuff.

Magic resistance should apply the same minimum cap, and 2 debuff effects should never stack on top of each other, especially considering how strong they are.
You realise :
- the strongest armor debuff is about 1400 (-32% mitigation), on average between 2000 and 5500 = 25% to 70% reduction, (25% minimum cap after armorpen) = average 48% armor debuff.
- For magic resistance debuff its about 420 (-25% mitigation), on average between 450 and 800 = 50 to 93% reduction, no lower cap. = average 71% resistance debuff.

So if you allow two 400+ debuffs to stack, it's either you need to reevaluate magic resistances, magical damage, or both.
Otherwise it's just too powerful since no other dps can do that in the game currently.

[kmark101]

Btw the real fix would be an elemental resist debuff for order, which is the only damage type debuff that is missing (besides the knight's aura). It should be part of BW skill AND added to the Runepriest armor debuff tactic, similarly to the zealot. Elemental damage type: knight/BW vs spirit damage type chosen/sorc. As it should be.

[wonshot]

So you agree getting -800 magic resistance should exist at all, and is desirable for a class hitting for 3k+ damage on single skill ?

Thats kinda why i made this topic, to hear how others view this. At times i feel Sorc and BW's timestamp on a fully supported target is lackluster because how it can be mitigated, but at the same time the pugstomping potential is just unmatched with onecomboing undergeared or unsupported, unaware players (orvr or normal scs)
I dont care too much about this playstyle myself and dont do it as my main activity, because i simply find it boring to do backloaded dmg and perfer to be upclose and personal with frontloaded.

if both classes get their tactics following the rule of stacking because its a tactic and it should stack with abilities, then fine i guess. I just found it very obvious when i started playing my sorc a week ago or so, than the dmg numbers were clearly not the dmg as BW. and it was not only down to "focus" or resist types, something else was going on. Hence why it got reported. And why we are talking about it now, i guess

Been in some talks with casters like hao, svarz, frozenover etc last couple of days. the general sentiment seem to be that you can pugstomp and outplay on BW and sorc is just in a better place because it doesnt have to face rsh

[Atropik]

Btw the real fix would be an elemental resist debuff for order, which is the only damage type debuff that is missing (besides the knight's aura). It should be part of BW skill AND added to the Runepriest armor debuff tactic, similarly to the zealot. Elemental damage type: knight/BW vs spirit damage type chosen/sorc. As it should be.

As a one who plays runnie, i will not sacrifice a tactic slot in order to be able to run in 40ft front of destro melee zerg cleaving them with frontal aoe just to make sure some BW could have nice crits, i have my regular RP duties.

[Gatto]

The issue is the Sorc's debuff stacks, not that BW's doesn't. But good effort at trying to shift the topic.

nope, the issue is sorc tact work as intended and bw dont, easier solution is to fix ignition tact to stack as it should.

So you agree getting -800 magic resistance should exist at all, and is desirable for a class hitting for 3k+ damage on single skill ?

Friendly reminder, magic resistances are capped to 660, and divided b 3 after that (instead of 2 for every other stat).
Furthermore, magic resistances will only get you about 40-45% MAX mitigation without debuff, while armor cannot be less than 25% mitigation after debuff.

I see a clear balance issue, for a realm with 2 magic rdps with good synergies.
Same is valid if 2 BW could stack their debuff.

Magic resistance should apply the same minimum cap, and 2 debuff effects should never stack on top of each other, especially considering how strong they are.
You realise :
- the strongest armor debuff is about 1400 (-32% mitigation), on average between 2000 and 5500 = 25% to 70% reduction, (25% minimum cap after armorpen) = average 48% armor debuff.
- For magic resistance debuff its about 420 (-25% mitigation), on average between 450 and 800 = 50 to 93% reduction, no lower cap. = average 71% resistance debuff.

So if you allow two 400+ debuffs to stack, it's either you need to reevaluate magic resistances, magical damage, or both.
Otherwise it's just too powerful since no other dps can do that in the game currently.

you can stack 2 armor debuffs aswell, for example wl /mara with tank m1. And if u really want u can add rp armor debuff tact on on it,

[merfp27]

The issue is the Sorc's debuff stacks, not that BW's doesn't. But good effort at trying to shift the topic.

nope, the issue is sorc tact work as intended and bw dont, easier solution is to fix ignition tact to stack as it should.

So you agree getting -800 magic resistance should exist at all, and is desirable for a class hitting for 3k+ damage on single skill ?

Friendly reminder, magic resistances are capped to 660, and divided b 3 after that (instead of 2 for every other stat).
Furthermore, magic resistances will only get you about 40-45% MAX mitigation without debuff, while armor cannot be less than 25% mitigation after debuff.

I see a clear balance issue, for a realm with 2 magic rdps with good synergies.
Same is valid if 2 BW could stack their debuff.

Magic resistance should apply the same minimum cap, and 2 debuff effects should never stack on top of each other, especially considering how strong they are.
You realise :
- the strongest armor debuff is about 1400 (-32% mitigation), on average between 2000 and 5500 = 25% to 70% reduction, (25% minimum cap after armorpen) = average 48% armor debuff.
- For magic resistance debuff its about 420 (-25% mitigation), on average between 450 and 800 = 50 to 93% reduction, no lower cap. = average 71% resistance debuff.

So if you allow two 400+ debuffs to stack, it's either you need to reevaluate magic resistances, magical damage, or both.
Otherwise it's just too powerful since no other dps can do that in the game currently.

Can’t you get 3k crits with FA on SW? Hell even SH might come close with PA. Both can slot tactic to completely bypass resistance…

[sogeou]

you can stack 2 armor debuffs aswell, for example wl /mara with tank m1. And if u really want u can add rp armor debuff tact on on it,

The problem really is resist need to be 1050. Mythic was lazy when they made them so low for a fix. People were getting nuked by BW's, so started to stack resist over 1,000 and it lowered damage a ton. People cried on the forums and after a bit it was change.

Devs should put in soft caps for each type of gear type.

Heavy armor should have soft cap of armor of 5000, resist cap of 400. Tank weakness should be casters.
Cloth armor should have a soft cap of armor for 1400, resist cap of 1050.
Medium should be a mix a both. 3000 armor 600.

This is a much needed fix for balance. Mythic never had the right idea with balance.