Some Ranked Statistics

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Caduceus
Posts: 653

Re: Some Ranked Statistics

Post#41 » Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:58 pm

Rapzel wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:34 pm
3. The data is meaningless, it does not say anything as several people have already stated.

The data isn't meaningless. It doesn't show what you want it to show.

Go repeat the measurements with whatever parameters you think will fit it better. See if it changes the picture.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

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Amdus
Posts: 115

Re: Some Ranked Statistics

Post#42 » Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:28 am

Rapzel wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:34 pm
1. Where is the win rate calculated? The "data" collected is a collection of characters with positive MMR (I.E character needs to have drawn or won a game) or characters with 0 MMR and at least 1 win, how do I calculate the win rate from this data? Please explain.
2. You don't think it's weird that when the numbers are adjusted to contain only characters with OVER 10 games played, there's 1 career that has above 50% win rate, IB.
3. The data is meaningless, it does not say anything as several people have already stated.
4. Why I put it in quotation marks is because setting up arbitrary rules to rule out parts of the data set does not make it data about ranked, it's a clamped example of someone trying to prove some "bias".
5. It was an example, there's not 100 slayers that have lost 100 games and won 1 game on the leaderboard, I thought making it obviously exaggerated would make it clear it was an example, it apparently failed.

As I stated earlier in this thread, "23. Bright Wizard: 13/37 = 35.1%" and then you look at the BW that have 1 played game and you end up with having to remove 17 BW from the set, resulting in 11/20 (1 BW won their game and one drew I think), and all of the sudden the % value is BW = 55%, what does this mean? It has no value what so ever, it's useless "data".
Another example would be taking Sorc vs BW, there's 2-3 Sorcs above 1k MMR and 0 BW above 1k MMR, from this we can conclude that Sorc > BW right?
Of course not, because there's more parameters that we need to take into consideration, such as rSH being the dominating ranged career in ranked and Order having fewer viable setups than Destro (albeit the available ones may be stronger).
Do you think that by denying the reality you're doing a favour to the community? Do you think that by pretending everything is alright and disregarding the truth which is being presented in your face you're doing a favour to anyone? Let's play your game then, let's pretend everything is alright, working as intended. Let's see how far we can get.

Rapzel
Posts: 386

Re: Some Ranked Statistics

Post#43 » Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:20 am

Amdus wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:28 am
Rapzel wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:34 pm
1. Where is the win rate calculated? The "data" collected is a collection of characters with positive MMR (I.E character needs to have drawn or won a game) or characters with 0 MMR and at least 1 win, how do I calculate the win rate from this data? Please explain.
2. You don't think it's weird that when the numbers are adjusted to contain only characters with OVER 10 games played, there's 1 career that has above 50% win rate, IB.
3. The data is meaningless, it does not say anything as several people have already stated.
4. Why I put it in quotation marks is because setting up arbitrary rules to rule out parts of the data set does not make it data about ranked, it's a clamped example of someone trying to prove some "bias".
5. It was an example, there's not 100 slayers that have lost 100 games and won 1 game on the leaderboard, I thought making it obviously exaggerated would make it clear it was an example, it apparently failed.

As I stated earlier in this thread, "23. Bright Wizard: 13/37 = 35.1%" and then you look at the BW that have 1 played game and you end up with having to remove 17 BW from the set, resulting in 11/20 (1 BW won their game and one drew I think), and all of the sudden the % value is BW = 55%, what does this mean? It has no value what so ever, it's useless "data".
Another example would be taking Sorc vs BW, there's 2-3 Sorcs above 1k MMR and 0 BW above 1k MMR, from this we can conclude that Sorc > BW right?
Of course not, because there's more parameters that we need to take into consideration, such as rSH being the dominating ranged career in ranked and Order having fewer viable setups than Destro (albeit the available ones may be stronger).
Do you think that by denying the reality you're doing a favour to the community? Do you think that by pretending everything is alright and disregarding the truth which is being presented in your face you're doing a favour to anyone? Let's play your game then, let's pretend everything is alright, working as intended. Let's see how far we can get.
Answer the questions then if this is "reality".

And explain what BW = 55% then mean in this reality that you speak of?
Neither you nor OP have provided any legitimate context for the data.

siglade
Posts: 94

Re: Some Ranked Statistics

Post#44 » Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:34 am

You can't really talk about solo ranked because it's too rng..

How many game we had people who didn't wanted to be here because of queue all ?

How many game were win/lose because of crash ?

Lack of experience from players, some class rely heavily on others to shine and when u start from 0 you are ****.

Most of time one side have crippled setup, no resist buff/no stag/no armor debuff..
bachata, excommunicate abuser

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BluIzLucky
Posts: 689

Re: Some Ranked Statistics

Post#45 » Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:05 am

Amdus wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:28 am
Spoiler:
Rapzel wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:34 pm
1. Where is the win rate calculated? The "data" collected is a collection of characters with positive MMR (I.E character needs to have drawn or won a game) or characters with 0 MMR and at least 1 win, how do I calculate the win rate from this data? Please explain.
2. You don't think it's weird that when the numbers are adjusted to contain only characters with OVER 10 games played, there's 1 career that has above 50% win rate, IB.
3. The data is meaningless, it does not say anything as several people have already stated.
4. Why I put it in quotation marks is because setting up arbitrary rules to rule out parts of the data set does not make it data about ranked, it's a clamped example of someone trying to prove some "bias".
5. It was an example, there's not 100 slayers that have lost 100 games and won 1 game on the leaderboard, I thought making it obviously exaggerated would make it clear it was an example, it apparently failed.

As I stated earlier in this thread, "23. Bright Wizard: 13/37 = 35.1%" and then you look at the BW that have 1 played game and you end up with having to remove 17 BW from the set, resulting in 11/20 (1 BW won their game and one drew I think), and all of the sudden the % value is BW = 55%, what does this mean? It has no value what so ever, it's useless "data".
Another example would be taking Sorc vs BW, there's 2-3 Sorcs above 1k MMR and 0 BW above 1k MMR, from this we can conclude that Sorc > BW right?
Of course not, because there's more parameters that we need to take into consideration, such as rSH being the dominating ranged career in ranked and Order having fewer viable setups than Destro (albeit the available ones may be stronger).
Do you think that by denying the reality you're doing a favour to the community? Do you think that by pretending everything is alright and disregarding the truth which is being presented in your face you're doing a favour to anyone? Let's play your game then, let's pretend everything is alright, working as intended. Let's see how far we can get.
what is this reality you are talking about and why instead of giving counter points to the above arguments do you resort to saying they are delusional?


Caduceus wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:58 pmLet people interpret the data themselves, discuss and share their opinions on it. I have no fear of such discussions and open debate. Do you?


Here's someone from discord interpreting your data.....
I saw a thread talking about removed chosen skills and another one about ranked
Apparently Magus has an 8% win rate on average
eight percent
>Let that sink in
And seems like a bunch of people on this very thread, despite warnings from other people, have reached equally extrapolated conclusions...
SM - Arhalien +80 | AM - Shaheena +80
ZL - Wildera +70 | BG - Blackcrow +70

Caduceus
Posts: 653

Re: Some Ranked Statistics

Post#46 » Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:29 am

BluIzLucky wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:05 am
And seems like a bunch of people on this very thread, despite warnings from other people, have reached equally extrapolated conclusions...

I have not reached any extrapolated conclusions.

But I can imagine that a lot of people look at these figures and assume something is wrong. Maybe they're right.

Maybe, instead of attacking my person or the data itself, the naysayers should engage with what the data actually shows and come up with an explanation for the discrepancies. Apparently the case you all so far have made has not been very convincing.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

Rapzel
Posts: 386

Re: Some Ranked Statistics

Post#47 » Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:25 pm

Caduceus wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:58 pm
Rapzel wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:34 pm
3. The data is meaningless, it does not say anything as several people have already stated.

The data isn't meaningless. It doesn't show what you want it to show.

Go repeat the measurements with whatever parameters you think will fit it better. See if it changes the picture.
So what do I want it to show then?

I'm quite sure you're trying to make an argument about how bad ranged is in ranked, when the currently best group ranked 6vs6 team (given win rate) currently consists of rSH, Sorc, Mara with Zealot + DoK and Blackguard.

but explain how 21. Squig Herder: 12/53 = 22.6% and that Teefz is the highest ranked player on the server works, because according to your statistics rSH is bad in solo ranked.

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b00n
Posts: 192

Re: Some Ranked Statistics

Post#48 » Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:36 pm

Rapzel wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:25 pm
Caduceus wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:58 pm
Rapzel wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:34 pm
3. The data is meaningless, it does not say anything as several people have already stated.

The data isn't meaningless. It doesn't show what you want it to show.

Go repeat the measurements with whatever parameters you think will fit it better. See if it changes the picture.
So what do I want it to show then?

I'm quite sure you're trying to make an argument about how bad ranged is in ranked, when the currently best group ranked 6vs6 team (given win rate) currently consists of rSH, Sorc, Mara with Zealot + DoK and Blackguard.

but explain how 21. Squig Herder: 12/53 = 22.6% and that Teefz is the highest ranked player on the server works, because according to your statistics rSH is bad in solo ranked.
Teefz did the matches at certain times with enemys, which aren't the "premades" which are now or later in that ranked brakcets. So not saying that we talk about a bad player, just saying probably had a good amount of luck or good feeling on how to dodge premades.

Tbh: The ranked thing was a lot of fun, but since it is now with discord and mmr >1k requirement for the ring, it started to be a useless thing, because it degenerates and dies slowly.
Destro: Chosen 85+, Zealot 80+, Sorceress 80+, Dok 80+, BG 80+, Magus 80+, Choppa 80+, WitchElf 80+
Order: SM 64, Warrior Priest 47, AM, BrightWizard, ShadowWarrior, Kotbs

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Rapzel
Posts: 386

Re: Some Ranked Statistics

Post#49 » Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:40 pm

b00n wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:36 pm
Rapzel wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:25 pm
So what do I want it to show then?

I'm quite sure you're trying to make an argument about how bad ranged is in ranked, when the currently best group ranked 6vs6 team (given win rate) currently consists of rSH, Sorc, Mara with Zealot + DoK and Blackguard.

but explain how 21. Squig Herder: 12/53 = 22.6% and that Teefz is the highest ranked player on the server works, because according to your statistics rSH is bad in solo ranked.
Teefz did the matches at certain times with enemys, which aren't the "premades" which are now or later in that ranked brakcets. So not saying that we talk about a bad player, just saying probably had a good amount of luck or good feeling on how to dodge premades.

Tbh: The ranked thing was a lot of fun, but since it is now with discord and mmr >1k requirement for the ring, it started to be a useless thing, because it degenerates and dies slowly.
So that has to be a variable that we need to take into account when we extract the data?

Caduceus
Posts: 653

Re: Some Ranked Statistics

Post#50 » Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:32 pm

Rapzel wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:25 pm
So what do I want it to show then?

How should I know? But your determination to label the data is useless when it clearly isn't seems to suggest as much.

Rapzel wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:25 pm
I'm quite sure you're trying to make an argument about how bad ranged is in ranked, when the currently best group ranked 6vs6 team (given win rate) currently consists of rSH, Sorc, Mara with Zealot + DoK and Blackguard.

I am not "making that argument" insofar as I do not believe the data proves RDPS to be bad.

It does however give an impression that something is wrong with certain classes. I've been waiting for people to engage with the data and argue possible reasons, other than RDPS being "bad", why these discrepancies exist. So far, I have seen none. Just a determined assault on my character, that I am biased etc., or an assault on the quality of my data, which is supposedly faulty or useless. None of these are particularly convincing.

Rapzel wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:25 pm
but explain how 21. Squig Herder: 12/53 = 22.6% and that Teefz is the highest ranked player on the server works, because according to your statistics rSH is bad in solo ranked.

I am highly skeptical of anyone who holds a record of well over 2:1 win/loss ratio in Solo Ranked, especially when it is done with classes that otherwise seem to underperform. The system is too flimsy for that. And that goes both ways: maybe the high amount of people dropping out at the bottom is a result of people playing the system and them getting discouraged by it? Who knows. Valid questions to discuss here.

Also, I do not agree with the notion that just because a handful of players seem to perform well on a class that is otherwise strictly underperforming, necessarily means that the class is fine.

As we have seen, Ranked cannot live with an attitude that considers the majority of the Ranked playerbase "not good enough to matter".
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

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