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Some Ranked Statistics

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NSKaneda
Posts: 968

Re: Some Ranked Statistics

Post#101 » Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:40 pm

Caduceus wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:40 pm
NSKaneda wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:37 pm
Spoiler:
Dangling carrot to make players que ;)

Haha. It seems to have had the opposite effect.

Too many sticks for one veggie ;)
RoR: Burszui SH, Ropopuch SHM<|[]|>Ginnar IB, Vidarr HMR, Runatyr RP ++ REV guild ++
Live: Karak Izor -> Karak Norn - Yarpaen IB, Ginnarr SL, Volundr ENG +Ithilmar's Chosen+
* * * playing 19 classes - running out of char slots * * *

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Alubert
Posts: 323

Re: Some Ranked Statistics

Post#102 » Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:43 pm

Mordd wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:47 pm
Alubert wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:44 pm
Justina wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:37 pm
Oh come on... stop asking for chosen buffs... they are very good as they are...

Chosen was ridiculous the way it was. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRwNIr1Dgzk
Its just solo roam build chosen. Really dosent matter in team play game.
Its just 6v6 KoBS. Really doesnt matter in a massive ORVR game.
Orvr is not only zerg playstyle.
Anyway KotBS is a king of all tanks at any apect of the game: ranked, sc, orvr.
If u dont see it prob u play only one order side.
Hurub - Chopa
Wybrany - Chosen
Mroczniak - BG
Doczek - DoK
Alubert - KTB
Mnich -WP
Kregi - Slayer

Caduceus
Posts: 653

Re: Some Ranked Statistics

Post#103 » Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:56 pm

Arbich wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:08 pm
No way to prove this. I did play plenty of games, also with and against the ppl on top of the leaderboard. Only anecdotal evidence, but I would say your assumption is wrong at least for ppl with 1000+mmr. What you described might happen (I would say its likely) in the bracket where you can matched with 0mmr player, because some of these have the stigma (justified or not...) to drag down their entire team. Thats why the mmr system with the brackets is a good thing in general, which only might need some adjustments.

In the end what you described is a conspiracy theory.

"You can prove nothing!"; the first words one would expect from a guilty mouth.

No, I jest.

However, as I said before, I am skeptical of characters with win/loss ratios that are well above 2:1, because I find it hard to believe that such numbers can be explained through player skill alone. Consistently carrying a 6-man team, even when one is supposedly getting balanced, highly competitive matches at high mmr? Doubtful. Insane luck? Possible. Even class imbalance would seem like a stretch to explain such a giant deviation, but this is also not out of question.

Since it is so easy to obtain outside information to increase one's winning chances when queueing Ranked, I think this is the likely culprit. (And lets not pretend that this process isn't a regular topic of conversation)

To be clear, if it turns out a certain SH has found the holy grail of squig herding that other SHs simply haven't figured out, and SH actually turns out to be OP in Ranked, I have no problem acknowledging that. I'm in favor for a balanced game for all. But it seems like a stretch, to base such things on a single outlier.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

Cimba
Posts: 376

Re: Some Ranked Statistics

Post#104 » Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:48 pm

Arbich wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:08 pm
Caduceus wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:24 pm
I see where you're going with this, but I don't necessarily agree. You will probably agree with me that in its current form it is easy to "play the system". And what I mean by that is collecting outside information on things that will influence your win chances in Ranked. That is: avoiding difficult competition, avoiding weak players on one's own team, looking for weak players on the other team, queueing with a group of friends to essentially turn your random Solo Ranked group into a premade, etc.

In my opinion, it is entirely unclear how much the aforementioned factors into the success of the top players, and therefore I don't agree that it can simply be taken as an accurate representation of class balance.
No way to prove this. I did play plenty of games, also with and against the ppl on top of the leaderboard. Only anecdotal evidence, but I would say your assumption is wrong at least for ppl with 1000+mmr. What you described might happen (I would say its likely) in the bracket where you can matched with 0mmr player, because some of these have the stigma (justified or not...) to drag down their entire team. Thats why the mmr system with the brackets is a good thing in general, which only might need some adjustments.

In the end what you described is a conspiracy theory.
According to his definition logging off after you a bad match with a bunch of headless chicken is "playing" the system. Seeing your guild mates online and knowning they are likey in que is "playing the system". The bar is so low that if you dont isolate yourself completely than you will unconsciously play the system.

Caduceus
Posts: 653

Re: Some Ranked Statistics

Post#105 » Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:55 pm

Cimba wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:48 pm
According to his definition logging off after you a bad match with a bunch of headless chicken is "playing" the system. Seeing your guild mates online and knowning they are likey in que is "playing the system". The bar is so low that if you dont isolate yourself completely than you will unconsciously play the system.

This is false on both accounts.

The first information gathered is from inside a match, and not outside.

And queueing when your friends are queueing is not playing the system. Only queueing when your friends are queueing is.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

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Arbich
Suspended
Posts: 788

Re: Some Ranked Statistics

Post#106 » Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:59 pm

Caduceus wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:56 pm
Arbich wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:08 pm
No way to prove this. I did play plenty of games, also with and against the ppl on top of the leaderboard. Only anecdotal evidence, but I would say your assumption is wrong at least for ppl with 1000+mmr. What you described might happen (I would say its likely) in the bracket where you can matched with 0mmr player, because some of these have the stigma (justified or not...) to drag down their entire team. Thats why the mmr system with the brackets is a good thing in general, which only might need some adjustments.

In the end what you described is a conspiracy theory.

"You can prove nothing!"; the first words one would expect from a guilty mouth.

No, I jest.

However, as I said before, I am skeptical of characters with win/loss ratios that are well above 2:1, because I find it hard to believe that such numbers can be explained through player skill alone. Consistently carrying a 6-man team, even when one is supposedly getting balanced, highly competitive matches at high mmr? Doubtful. Insane luck? Possible. Even class imbalance would seem like a stretch to explain such a giant deviation, but this is also not out of question.

Since it is so easy to obtain outside information to increase one's winning chances when queueing Ranked, I think this is the likely culprit. (And lets not pretend that this process isn't a regular topic of conversation)

To be clear, if it turns out a certain SH has found the holy grail of squig herding that other SHs simply haven't figured out, and SH actually turns out to be OP in Ranked, I have no problem acknowledging that. I'm in favor for a balanced game for all. But it seems like a stretch, to base such things on a single outlier.
You can have a 10 games winning streak... so the stats of ppl with less than 100-150 games are of little value (don´t necessarily mean they can´t keep their ratio with more games, some probably can).

About the SH specifically: They don´t have to find the holy grail. SH is the best range class for small scale (like solo ranked) atm. Melee squig is probably one of the worst mdps for small scale atm, though.
I already gave my statement and some data points, why your statistics regarding SH and IB at least are of little value.
Arbich-BW/Xanthippe-WP/Schnipsel-AM

Mergrim
Posts: 238

Re: Some Ranked Statistics

Post#107 » Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:59 pm

Caduceus wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:38 pm
Mergrim wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:56 pm
Have you seen all engi/sw/sorc/bw playing rvr/city? It's all about players not about weak class. Most of them trying to do ranked same way as they play rvr...engi/magius camping on walls/sw spam BHA/aoe bw/aoe sorc.
Look at this viewtopic.php?f=76&t=46102. Someone just create thread about sw. Broken class in right hands.
It is not my goal to teach people how play this game.

Ok, but this still doesn't explain why these classes would be over-represented in terms of having more weak players compared to other classes. I would expect roughly the same amount of comparatively bad players on every class. Maybe classes that have a reputation for being hard to play could see a higher percentage of unsuccessful players, but we actually see the opposite with IB and BG having the highest amount of participation for Order and Destruction respectively!

So what is going on here?
The statistics you provide here are useless. IB?
This how you should make statistic(I don't count draws, only for order tanks[Not gonna waste more time])
Win ratio by all order tanks that played ranked solo:
Kotbz: Win:1393 Lost:1159 54.5% win ratio
IB: Win: 923 Lost: 1011 47.7% win ratio
SM: Win:593 Lost:673 46.8% win ratio

Still don't get why this thread is not closed after first post:D Lets make data from nowhere and fun begin:D

Caduceus
Posts: 653

Re: Some Ranked Statistics

Post#108 » Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:03 pm

Mergrim wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:59 pm
The statistics you provide here are useless. IB?
This how you should make statistic(I don't count draws, only for order tanks[Not gonna waste more time])
Win ratio by all order tanks that played ranked solo:
Kotbz: Win:1393 Lost:1159 54.5% win ratio
IB: Win: 923 Lost: 1011 47.7% win ratio
SM: Win:593 Lost:673 46.8% win ratio

Class balance and win rates were never my primary concern.

I made these measurements because there seemed to be a discrepancy in the percentage of each class that is able to participate in Ranked, and the measurements confirmed this.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

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havartii
Posts: 423

Re: Some Ranked Statistics

Post#109 » Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:41 am

Of course double slayer is OP Gravord plays slayer.. Kotbs OP .. Blackguard Op.. WP op.. I think we see a pattern here, all other classes get nerf lol.
Order: 70 AM / 76 RP/ 72 Knight/ 58 WH
Destro: 82 Sham / 79 Zealot/ 70 DoK /70 Magus /68 Mara
Many alts on both sides now ruined by new currency change

Rapzel
Posts: 390

Re: Some Ranked Statistics

Post#110 » Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:06 am

Mergrim wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:59 pm
Caduceus wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:38 pm
Mergrim wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:56 pm
Have you seen all engi/sw/sorc/bw playing rvr/city? It's all about players not about weak class. Most of them trying to do ranked same way as they play rvr...engi/magius camping on walls/sw spam BHA/aoe bw/aoe sorc.
Look at this viewtopic.php?f=76&t=46102. Someone just create thread about sw. Broken class in right hands.
It is not my goal to teach people how play this game.

Ok, but this still doesn't explain why these classes would be over-represented in terms of having more weak players compared to other classes. I would expect roughly the same amount of comparatively bad players on every class. Maybe classes that have a reputation for being hard to play could see a higher percentage of unsuccessful players, but we actually see the opposite with IB and BG having the highest amount of participation for Order and Destruction respectively!

So what is going on here?
The statistics you provide here are useless. IB?
This how you should make statistic(I don't count draws, only for order tanks[Not gonna waste more time])
Win ratio by all order tanks that played ranked solo:
Kotbz: Win:1393 Lost:1159 54.5% win ratio
IB: Win: 923 Lost: 1011 47.7% win ratio
SM: Win:593 Lost:673 46.8% win ratio

Still don't get why this thread is not closed after first post:D Lets make data from nowhere and fun begin:D
So today I learned that 1393+1159 < 923 +1011.
"IB has highest participation".

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