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alexc
Posts: 3

Re: Scenarios....

Post#31 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:27 pm

GamesBond wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:18 pm
Farrul wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:00 pm
GamesBond wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:53 pmSome premade groups require you to be vocal on Discord, it's not a hardcore mentality nor an elitist mentality, it's how people play nowadays with the easily accessible QoL improvements that a 3rd party software may offer.
There are many potential issues/barriers with Discord ( voice com) that when forced upon people will make a lot of them simply quit rather than attempt socilizing, this is not unique to Warhammer online. For a variety of reasons, e.g language difficulties - not everyone feels comfortable talking in english - casuals that want to relax a moment with a game coming home stressful work, time constraints i.e real life responsibilities and no time to setup a team or follow guild schedules, social anxiety etc).

This exact topic was in fact very hot in the WoW classic forums 1,5 years ago when que times suddenly dramatically increased in the Battlegrounds (WoW classic equivalent to scenarios ) when casuals finally had enough of being farmed by premades for several weeks(this coincided with the release of ''event'' weekend Battlegrounds that promoted premade activity) . Interestingly enough It turned out that when the casuals were quitting the premade crowd lost interest as well, it seems their joy was to steamroll pugs for easy rewards and not fight the hard battles against other premades ( obviously a lot more demanding).

So back to Warhammer online, what can be learned from this? That there should be a balance between premade and pugs, without pugs(imo the lifeblood) most of these games becomes in fact very ''elitist'' and the communities/player base shrinks dramatically as a result.

The issue i see with RoR is that it does not have the luxury of numbers to sacrifice players like that (WoW classic had a 500k strong playerbase at that time).
The core misunderstanding is that neither you nor myself define how people should play. That's about it. If you're losing 24/7 (which I doubt, people exaggerate), then you need to change the way you're playing and that's for your own sake.

Being on voice coms is not at all an elitist thing if you actually would like to play in this era. Coordinating with your team mates is not an elitist thing. I understand many older players might consider Discord complicated or 'a barrier' - but that's not everyone else's issue.

We're not sacrificing anything. Discord is available, we won't shape the game because some people refuse to put their headset, left click on a channel and listen to orders. I know many people in the community who are old and they have quickly learned and adapted to Discord and voice coms to the point where they now require younger players to be present during their warbands, premades, etc.

You put a slight effort, you reap the benefits. You don't put any effort into organizing, you will lose when you face other people who are organized.

You can sit here and babble about what people should and shouldn't do, but funneling newer players/casuals into meat grinders is bad for the health and population of the game, full stop. -Signed newer casual player that is done after playing t2 scenarios for a bit.
Last edited by alexc on Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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alexc
Posts: 3

Re: Scenarios....

Post#32 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:30 pm

I just want to add. I see lots of complaints about how the community here is toxic. Want to know why? Because the only people that stick around are toxic elitist sperglords.

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CyunUnderis
Posts: 480
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Re: Scenarios....

Post#33 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:37 pm

alexc wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:27 pm You can sit here and babble about what people should and shouldnt do, but funneling newer players or casuals into meat grinders is bad for the health and population of the game full stop. -Signed newer casual player that is done after playing t2 scenarios for a bit.
Did you try to to do the thing that people have advised in this discussion, to improve your T2 experience in SC ? Like tag in PUG SC only ? Ask what to do in /advice ? Join or make a party ?

It is easy to blame or criticize the system without questioning oneself or exploring all the options available to us.

There is a lot of people that can help new players get stuff, advice, gold to improve the new player game experience, IG (/5, /1) or on other media (Twitch, Discord, ...).

alexc
Posts: 3

Re: Scenarios....

Post#34 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:41 pm

It is not at all unreasonable for a new player to assume he isn't going to be led like a lamb to slaughter. Premades should fight against premades. Why is it silly to assume that? Do people really enjoy cranking out 500 to 25 scenarios in 90 seconds? That is not fun or engaging game play for either the winning or losing side.

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CyunUnderis
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Re: Scenarios....

Post#35 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:56 pm

Premades do not always win 500 to 25. Premades, sometimes, not always, fight against other premades. Sometimes PUG win against premades, specially in T2/T3. The fact of setting up a group simply guarantees you to have a 2/2/2 (or at least to have tanks and healers). This is not an autowin button.

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GamesBond
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Re: Scenarios....

Post#36 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:10 pm

ufthakk wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:31 pm
GamesBond wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:18 pm I know many people in the community who are old and they have quickly learned and adapted to Discord and voice coms to the point where they now require younger players to be present during their warbands, premades, etc.
How u aquire that information ? I think it's a lot of older mmo players that like to hang out in voice chat all day.
Voice chat is just another option to get an advantage. NOT a guarantee to win. Eternal Citadel is about bis ppl beating up lowgear ppl.
Pretty much what I meant. My point was that even older players are finding it smoother to jump on voice to a point where they encourage or even require other 'younger' players. The comparison is meant to show how easy it is to adapt to newer ways.

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alexc wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:27 pm You can sit here and babble about what people should and shouldn't do, but funneling newer players/casuals into meat grinders is bad for the health and population of the game, full stop. -Signed newer casual player that is done after playing t2 scenarios for a bit.
I already said that I don't decide how players need to play, neither do you or anyone else. Everyone will play the way they want to play. But don't come here and whine after losing versus a premade (premade = players who decided they want to organize themselves) while you logged in and instantly queued. I'm not creating posts bashing other people for organizing, or pointing fingers at solo players - I'm letting you know that the only person able to make your experience better is you, by playing with a team when needed. This weekend warfront is obviously not PUG friendly, it's the first in 2 months - give the guilds and premades a break please.

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I'll make it clearer for you, here's what you told me:
alexc wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:27 pm You can sit here and babble about what people should and shouldn't do
Yet you're dictating how people should play:
alexc wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:41 pm Premades should fight against premades.
While my original answer was that no one but the players themselves decide:
GamesBond wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:18 pm neither you nor myself define how people should play.
So yeah... Players play the way they want to, but you're the one coming to the forums with the sole purpose of denying premades from scenarios. Your opinion is well respected and your concerns are understood, but there are other opinions too. Having a special queue system with premades will kill these premades as their waiting time would be extremely high.

KenkuKensai
Posts: 3

Pre-mades should fight other pre-mades

Post#37 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:10 pm

There is zero reason to allow hand-picked groups to reap Renown by rolling over disorganize PUGs. And yes, everybody knows that's why people make pre-mades for scenarios.

"But I want to play with my friends."
Pre-mades being matched against other pre-mades doesn't stop this.

"You can make a pre-made."
Not interested. Neither stomping nor being stomped is fun. Also, most people want to just click a button and play, not go through a drafting process.

"It's war! War isn't fair!"
No, it's a game, and games are expected to be fair. If you want to be in a real war, go enlist.

"There's a pug scenario."
Yes, one. Which most likely is not the one you need for quests, or relic hunting, or finishing the Keeper's Set, or whatever else, not to mention that queueing for a single scenario significantly increases wait times, as well as just being boring to do the same one repeatedly.

In addition, it's blatantly unfair that a PUG group most likely gets trivial, if not zero, rewards from being put in a mathematically impossible situation, while the pre-made easy-mode team gets full rewards and then some.

Ultimately, letting pre-mades match against pugs is extremely unhealthy for the game; most people will quit instead of jumping through hoops to have the possibility of a fun scenario experience. The server is hemorrhaging players and fixing the unfair matchmaking would go a long way towards staunching that. In fact, people might actually come back if they heard they would no longer be constantly put into impossible situations.

Husti
Posts: 111

Re: Pre-mades should fight other pre-mades

Post#38 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:50 pm

KenkuKensai wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:10 pm There is zero reason to allow hand-picked groups to reap Renown by rolling over disorganize PUGs. And yes, everybody knows that's why people make pre-mades for scenarios.

"But I want to play with my friends."
Pre-mades being matched against other pre-mades doesn't stop this.

"You can make a pre-made."
Not interested. Neither stomping nor being stomped is fun. Also, most people want to just click a button and play, not go through a drafting process.

"It's war! War isn't fair!"
No, it's a game, and games are expected to be fair. If you want to be in a real war, go enlist.

"There's a pug scenario."
Yes, one. Which most likely is not the one you need for quests, or relic hunting, or finishing the Keeper's Set, or whatever else, not to mention that queueing for a single scenario significantly increases wait times, as well as just being boring to do the same one repeatedly.

In addition, it's blatantly unfair that a PUG group most likely gets trivial, if not zero, rewards from being put in a mathematically impossible situation, while the pre-made easy-mode team gets full rewards and then some.

Ultimately, letting pre-mades match against pugs is extremely unhealthy for the game; most people will quit instead of jumping through hoops to have the possibility of a fun scenario experience. The server is hemorrhaging players and fixing the unfair matchmaking would go a long way towards staunching that. In fact, people might actually come back if they heard they would no longer be constantly put into impossible situations.
100% agree. The problem is that most casuals don't post on the forum and give their opinions on it. It's always the try-hards and guild players that post stuff like "git gud" or "making a group takes only a few minutes" and stuff like that.

In reality most people run around solo in orvr and probably would love to have pug SCs, because even if it is unlikely to get a 2/2/2 setup, the chances of winning are just higher than vs premades. It's not only the premade itself, it is the 2/2/2 setup that is superior. Having a 6man with that setup with 80+ good players and discord is just not beatable with random pugs. You wont get the 2/2/2 setup, you wont get the assist and you wont get only good players.

They should at least try it for a week or so, making SCs only queuable as solo and see how that works out.

I have giving lvl 40 SCs up long ago. It's just not fun when you don't have a good group, which you usually don't have. I play SCs only in t1 and t3 because it is more likely to get randoms and guess what, they are a lot more fun. Some you lose, some you win. You never know what you gonna get. That's what makes it fun for me.

They need to understand that premades are not healthy for fun gameplay in SCs. You either get stomped and start to evade them by doing something else or if you happen to have a great group the enemy starts to evade or stops queuing. It's garbage if you ask me. If you want competitve 6vs6 then queue for ranked. 6man premades vs randoms is just wrong. I hope they will realize that one day.

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Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: Scenarios....

Post#39 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:50 pm

It was your choice to queue solo for non-pug SC, with randomized group setup, which in itself could cause a loss, even if you fight other solo players with better setup.
Accept the outcome, because you picked it.
Dying is no option.

KenkuKensai
Posts: 3

Re: Scenarios....

Post#40 » Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:13 am

GamesBond wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:18 pm
Farrul wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:00 pm
GamesBond wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:53 pmSome premade groups require you to be vocal on Discord, it's not a hardcore mentality nor an elitist mentality, it's how people play nowadays with the easily accessible QoL improvements that a 3rd party software may offer.
There are many potential issues/barriers with Discord ( voice com) that when forced upon people will make a lot of them simply quit rather than attempt socilizing, this is not unique to Warhammer online. For a variety of reasons, e.g language difficulties - not everyone feels comfortable talking in english - casuals that want to relax a moment with a game coming home stressful work, time constraints i.e real life responsibilities and no time to setup a team or follow guild schedules, social anxiety etc).

This exact topic was in fact very hot in the WoW classic forums 1,5 years ago when que times suddenly dramatically increased in the Battlegrounds (WoW classic equivalent to scenarios ) when casuals finally had enough of being farmed by premades for several weeks(this coincided with the release of ''event'' weekend Battlegrounds that promoted premade activity) . Interestingly enough It turned out that when the casuals were quitting the premade crowd lost interest as well, it seems their joy was to steamroll pugs for easy rewards and not fight the hard battles against other premades ( obviously a lot more demanding).

So back to Warhammer online, what can be learned from this? That there should be a balance between premade and pugs, without pugs(imo the lifeblood) most of these games becomes in fact very ''elitist'' and the communities/player base shrinks dramatically as a result.

The issue i see with RoR is that it does not have the luxury of numbers to sacrifice players like that (WoW classic had a 500k strong playerbase at that time).
The core misunderstanding is that neither you nor myself define how people should play. That's about it. If you're losing 24/7 (which I doubt, people exaggerate), then you need to change the way you're playing and that's for your own sake.

Being on voice coms is not at all an elitist thing if you actually would like to play in this era. Coordinating with your team mates is not an elitist thing. I understand many older players might consider Discord complicated or 'a barrier' - but that's not everyone else's issue.

We're not sacrificing anything. Discord is available, we won't shape the game because some people refuse to put their headset, left click on a channel and listen to orders. I know many people in the community who are old and they have quickly learned and adapted to Discord and voice coms to the point where they now require younger players to be present during their warbands, premades, etc.

You put a slight effort, you reap the benefits. You don't put any effort into organizing, you will lose when you face other people who are organized.
You really can't see the hypocrisy in your post?

"...neither you nor myself define how people should play."

And then you proceed to say that people should be on voice-comms and whatnot, or else lose.

The fact is, there is nothing lost by making pre-mades fight other pre-mades. Not one single thing. But there's a lot to be gained, including fair matches for both the PUG and Pre-made crowds (though I strongly suspect the pre-made crowd would stop making pre-mades once their easy renown farms were no more), and a much less frustrated and unhappy player-base.

Those who are against fair matchmaking, including you apparently, just don't want their easy renown farm to disappear, and that is all there is to it. There is zero justification for the matchmaking to remain the way it currently is.

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