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Nerf WE

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Aethilmar
Posts: 636

Re: Nerf WE

Post#51 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:40 pm

Shogun4138 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:13 pm When running into or around pvp, you may die, this is not candy crush.

WE/WH are working as intended. There has to be some fear of them lurking out there.
The problem being discussed is not that they can kill you.

The problem is the risk/reward for both stealther classes that has shifted dramatically in their favor especially with all the self-heal and escapes they have available plus functional perma-stealth (plus apparently an unfixed bug that is really skewing the conversation about WE). Add on top of that the "fun" regen meta and you have what we got today.

As noted by someone else, regen needs to be toned down/eliminated in general as it devalues healing classes and team play. On top of that, stealth needs to be moved back to about 20-30s when active to make it an actual tactical decision by the stealther. And, ofc, fix the WE bug.

Make those basic changes then we can re-evaluate the state of stealthers.

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MMXX43
Posts: 223

Re: Nerf WE

Post#52 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:13 pm

So we are pretending Sacrifices rewarded is not a problem aswell ?

nocturnalguest
Posts: 490

Re: Nerf WE

Post#53 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:38 pm

Aethilmar wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:40 pm As noted by someone else, regen needs to be toned down/eliminated in general as it devalues healing classes and team play
How exactly?

Regen builds are purely a solo thing. They have existed along with absorb builds back on live, they do exist here. Its a niche thing mostly enabling oRvR solo roam. Any class has a selfsustain build option, some do it better, some worse.
Game needs changes that would increase diversity (e.g. enabling more build options, playstyles, make 2h slayer/choppa a thing, unnerf DPS RP/Z etc). Narrowing it down to catter people butthurted by solo roamers is definitely a bad decision.

Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: Nerf WE

Post#54 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:10 pm

MMXX43 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:13 pm So we are pretending Sacrifices rewarded is not a problem aswell ?
No, considering you lose quite bit damage by picking defensive tactics.
Dying is no option.

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Aethilmar
Posts: 636

Re: Nerf WE

Post#55 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:11 pm

nocturnalguest wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:38 pm
Aethilmar wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:40 pm As noted by someone else, regen needs to be toned down/eliminated in general as it devalues healing classes and team play
How exactly?

Regen builds are purely a solo thing. They have existed along with absorb builds back on live, they do exist here. Its a niche thing mostly enabling oRvR solo roam. Any class has a selfsustain build option, some do it better, some worse.
Game needs changes that would increase diversity (e.g. enabling more build options, playstyles, make 2h slayer/choppa a thing, unnerf DPS RP/Z etc). Narrowing it down to catter people butthurted by solo roamers is definitely a bad decision.
It is so "niche" that significant amounts of mdps are running it all the time and it costs hundreds of gold to outfit characters in this way. I know I've seen it heavily on Choppas and WE. Hard to tell if a Mara is using it b/c they already have a significant regen options. I can only presume it is being used by Order mdps as well. While I don't have any regen gear on my WH, I do use DG + Sanctified Bullets for a very nice (like 4-5k) heal in RvR mass combat situations that combined with my escape tools keeps me very safe even solo.

Bottom line is that good sustain on high dps classes (or above average dps classes when they spec into sustain) creates significant balance issues. But you know that. You just don't want your ox to get gored.

Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: Nerf WE

Post#56 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:49 pm

Aethilmar wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:11 pm

It is so "niche" that significant amounts of mdps are running it all the time and it costs hundreds of gold to outfit characters in this way. I know I've seen it heavily on Choppas and WE. Hard to tell if a Mara is using it b/c they already have a significant regen options. I can only presume it is being used by Order mdps as well. While I don't have any regen gear on my WH, I do use DG + Sanctified Bullets for a very nice (like 4-5k) heal in RvR mass combat situations that combined with my escape tools keeps me very safe even solo.

Bottom line is that good sustain on high dps classes (or above average dps classes when they spec into sustain) creates significant balance issues. But you know that. You just don't want your ox to get gored.
It isn't even close, when going for def regen spec, if you compare it with off spec with 1,6k+ AW crits paired with WB enhanced with even more dmg tactics. You deal significantly less damage but it doesn't matter, if you have plenty time during low pop hours with only a few players in zone, without people adding all the time.
Not many people have regen gear, that's why they hunt in groups to kill fast.
Yes, this niche is expensive but joining a group for heals is all it needs to overcome it.
Basically you outlast your enemy, because you have virtually a lazy pocket healer with you, who at least reliably throws a hot on you.
Regen is an absolute non-issue outside of soloing and soloing per se is unfair, because some classes have healing via skills and others not. What you want is pushing out classes, who get sustain with gear, while others have skills.
Dying is no option.

nocturnalguest
Posts: 490

Re: Nerf WE

Post#57 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:07 pm

Aethilmar wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:11 pm
It is so "niche" that significant amounts of mdps are running it all the time and it costs hundreds of gold to outfit characters in this way. I know I've seen it heavily on Choppas and WE. Hard to tell if a Mara is using it b/c they already have a significant regen options. I can only presume it is being used by Order mdps as well. While I don't have any regen gear on my WH, I do use DG + Sanctified Bullets for a very nice (like 4-5k) heal in RvR mass combat situations that combined with my escape tools keeps me very safe even solo.

Bottom line is that good sustain on high dps classes (or above average dps classes when they spec into sustain) creates significant balance issues. But you know that. You just don't want your ox to get gored.
I asked a question but didnt get an answer, it looks like a bad sign for me, but i guess ill keep up a discussion for a while:
"Significant amounts of mdps are running it all the time"
And doing it wrong. They would have benefit their duo/trio/6men way more in approriate spec for duo/trio/6men then running solo build/gear being in a group and if not then they are running wrong duo/trio/6men that is not synergies well. Selfsustain build (regen included) is a solo thing, trying to fit it into group play would not end up well against any proper opponents, otherwise everything works to stomp pugs.

I dont see any kind of "significant balance issues" nor "regen devaluating healing classes and team play". Your claims are nonsense.
It all works like this:
1) pick a game "mode" - solo roam orvr; solo q sc; <6 roam orvr; <6 q sc; 6men roam orvr; 6men q sc; 6v6; wb for orvr; wb for city
2) build your character appriately, according to your group composition and chosen game "mode"
Each mode has working builds, different group synergies. There are things that work and things that dont work. Selfsustain builds with regen works in solo roam orvr and solo q sc. Nowhere else they are any kind of an issue to call for broken balance. As a simple example, one can, of course, q solo rankeds with his oRvR AoE bomb build on BW. They quickly meet the consequences tho. It doesnt mean that BW needs a buff nor does it mean that it cant be played in rankeds. But it does mean that you can fit a square into triangle hole. So if you choose to play BW in solo rankeds than you have to build yourself approriate and rethink your playstyle. There are people who did it and didnt fail like the others who cant grasp this simple truth.
So again. Selfsustain builds with regen are not fitting for anything other than solo roam orvr/solo q sc, they do lack burst and do lack DPS, usually they lack the crucial group synergies as well.

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KissShot
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Re: Nerf WE

Post#58 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:05 am

This forum is gold.

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KissShot
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Re: Nerf WE

Post#59 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:07 am

Krima wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:08 pm My lord.. simple solutuion is just to remove:
-Kiss of doom
- Sanctified bullets

https://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum ... 95&t=47027
But muh health regen.

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warlover
Posts: 382

Re: Nerf WE

Post#60 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:42 am

No solution needed just another set of cry babies :cry: :cry: :cry:

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