Question about some stat.

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Hakker
Posts: 19

Question about some stat.

Post#1 » Mon May 16, 2022 4:09 pm

Hello,

I don't see any place where i can understand the Stat. What is good, what is bad.

Strenght, Intelligence, Ballistic: We know you do more damage if the stat is higher, but how it work exactly? 100 strenght is 10% more physical damage? They have a softcap?

Toughness: How really usefull it is if i don't understand the first 3 stat?

Bubble: How the bubble work exactly? I am not sure to understand. Toughness affect damage reduction of the bubble but not the Armor? It is really like that? Another thing affect the bubble?

Thank you!

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tazdingo
Posts: 1006

Re: Question about some stat.

Post#2 » Mon May 16, 2022 5:14 pm

toughness has changed a lot but i believe it now works directly against the offensive mainstats as well as +power stats, ie. if you have 500 toughness and a slayer has 700 strength, it will be as if he has 200 strength when he hits you. even so it doesn't work very well on it's own at mitigating big hits and does nothing vs most procs and morale dmg

toughness is mostly for tanks to allow them to stand on the frontline whilst ignoring fluff aoe and dots as a combination of 700/800 toughness, aoe hots and your own natural regen will basically negate all -none direct- damage. if a proper dps is actually attacking you with st abilities toughness will do absolutely nothing, which is why it's totally useless unless you're an orvr tank

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Fenris78
Posts: 540

Re: Question about some stat.

Post#3 » Mon May 16, 2022 11:21 pm

tazdingo wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 5:14 pm
toughness has changed a lot but i believe it now works directly against the offensive mainstats as well as +power stats, ie. if you have 500 toughness and a slayer has 700 strength, it will be as if he has 200 strength when he hits you. even so it doesn't work very well on it's own at mitigating big hits and does nothing vs most procs and morale dmg
Yes. Toughness is the negative stat for all offensive stats, and is scaled accordingly : 10 points in toughness cancels out 10 points in intelligence, ballistic and strength.
tazdingo wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 5:14 pm
toughness is mostly for tanks to allow them to stand on the frontline whilst ignoring fluff aoe and dots as a combination of 700/800 toughness, aoe hots and your own natural regen will basically negate all -none direct- damage. if a proper dps is actually attacking you with st abilities toughness will do absolutely nothing, which is why it's totally useless unless you're an orvr tank
No. Toughness actually mitigate all types of damages, saving morales and most procs (the ones wich are not modified by offensive stat), and is less effective against DoTs than direct damage, the scaling of DoT being more beneficial against toughness.
Toughness efficiency is completely scaled upon damage modifiers (crits and other +% increase effects), wich means it is very efficient against high damage modifiers ; toughness is applied first before all modifiers, wich means if the hit is a crit with +100% damage increase (like most mdps can do), your toughness become twice as effective, and so on.

Toughness mitigation is about 1.37% damage reduction, on average, for a +24 talisman.
Effective mitigation from armor is about 1.55% (against a 50% armor pen. hit, wich is average value from mdps) per 136 armor, but will only works against physical damage.

In conclusion, you better have the highest toughness and armor possible if you want to be resilient ; a value of 300-400 toughness is never a waste, no matter the class you play (saving maybe WE/WH and SH/SW who cant realistically go up to these amounts without great offensive sacrifices).


For more information, check this post from Lilim about stats and calculations : viewtopic.php?t=40739

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tazdingo
Posts: 1006

Re: Question about some stat.

Post#4 » Mon May 16, 2022 11:50 pm

read numbers, practical testing shows toughness does not do anything at all against big hits. i stop stacking it past 700 after testing that boiling blood from the same player crit for 1.7k at 700 tough and 1.5k at 1200 tough. alongside proc meta its a garbage stat, who cares when even healers get 400+ unmitigable procs. stack wounds and avoidance if you plan to survive pressure

Omegus
Posts: 929

Re: Question about some stat.

Post#5 » Tue May 17, 2022 12:35 am

Hakker wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 4:09 pm
Hello,

I don't see any place where i can understand the Stat. What is good, what is bad.

Strenght, Intelligence, Ballistic: We know you do more damage if the stat is higher, but how it work exactly? 100 strenght is 10% more physical damage? They have a softcap?

Toughness: How really usefull it is if i don't understand the first 3 stat?

Bubble: How the bubble work exactly? I am not sure to understand. Toughness affect damage reduction of the bubble but not the Armor? It is really like that? Another thing affect the bubble?

Thank you!
Strength/Ballistic Skill/Intelligence vs Toughness

On your character sheet is a drop-down box to let you look at different stats. There is a page for melee, range and magic. On each page is a "DPS bonus" (melee DPS bonus, ranged DPS bonus, magic DPS bonus) which shows how strength/ballistic skill/intelligence affect it. I'll spoil the surprise now and let you know that the DPS bonus is calculated as stat / 5. So 1000 strength = 200 melee DPS bonus. Toughnes works as a reduction to your opponent's DPS bonus. 1000 toughness = reduce the DPS bonus of incoming attacks by 200.

The damage for each ability is calculated by combining:

1) The "base damage"
2) Adding the contribution from the weapon's DPS value (not for magic attacks), and
3) Adding the contribution from the DPS bonus, also taking into account the opponent's toughnes.

How much the DPS bonus affects the final damage is known as the "primary stat modifier" or PSM. This value can vary from attack to attack and depends on a number of things:

1) Cast time. You are limited by how many abilities you can press by the global cooldown which officially is about 1.5 seconds. This means the default "Primary Stat Modifier" is 1.5 (200 DPS over 1.5 seconds = 300 damage bonus) for abilities with a cast time of under 1.5 seconds (including instant cast). However, abilities with a longer cast time get a higher PSM, typically equal to the length of the cast. So an ability that takes 3 seconds to cast would have a PSM of 3, and that 200 DPS bonus results in 600 bonus damage. Note that the PSM is determined before any modifiers to cast time are applied, so something like the Focused Mind morale ability which reduces your cast time won't reduce the damage.

2) Direct/instant damage or DOT

Damage over time abilities typically have a lower PSM than direct damage / instant damage abilities.

3) Single target or AOE

AOE abilities typically have a lower PSM than single target abilities.

Combined, a single target direct damage attack with a 3s cast time should have a huge PSM (typically the 3.0 mentioned), while an instant-cast AOE DoT has a very low PSM.

There is no easy way of finding out an ability's PSM value or the equivilent value for contribition from weapon DPS.

Absorb Shields

The stages of the combat formula are:

1) Calculation of initial damage, including strength/ballistic skill/intellgence/weapon bonus damage and reduction from toughness.
2) Modifiers which affect the attacker's outgoing damage are applied. This can be both increases and decreases.
3) Once the outgoing damage has been calculated, absorb shields are applied.
4) If the attack was a critical hit then any damage left after the absorb shield is multiplied by the crit damage multiplier
5+) the final bits after this are then reducing the damage by armour/resistances, and then applying incoming damage modifiers. I'm 995 sure it happens in that order, but it could be incoming damage first then resistances. Either way the result should be the same.

Absorb shields work as a good counter to critical hits as they reduce the damage BEFORE the critical hit is applied. There is no stat that increases absorb shields in general, but someone who has high toughness will get more out of absorb shields as the toughness stat contribution happens earlier in the combat formula.

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Hakker
Posts: 19

Re: Question about some stat.

Post#6 » Tue May 17, 2022 4:33 am

Wow, this is incredible! Thank you alot all of you. It is very appreciated.

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Fenris78
Posts: 540

Re: Question about some stat.

Post#7 » Tue May 17, 2022 10:10 am

tazdingo wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 11:50 pm
read numbers, practical testing shows toughness does not do anything at all against big hits. i stop stacking it past 700 after testing that boiling blood from the same player crit for 1.7k at 700 tough and 1.5k at 1200 tough. alongside proc meta its a garbage stat, who cares when even healers get 400+ unmitigable procs. stack wounds and avoidance if you plan to survive pressure
We found out the best ratio is around 800 toughness, anything higher got less value indeed. After that point it's better to increase magic resistances.
Against procs, it's still better to have armor/magic resistances, but some tactic procs (jagged edge, riposte for example) are still indexed on strenght, thus mitigated by toughness. Anyway that's usually not the procs that kills you, but they indeed can add to the instant burst of the killing hit.

Omegus wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 12:35 am
5+) the final bits after this are then reducing the damage by armour/resistances, and then applying incoming damage modifiers. I'm 995 sure it happens in that order, but it could be incoming damage first then resistances. Either way the result should be the same.
I think incoming damage modifiers (M3-4 from tanks, detaunt, challenges, hardy concession, etc) are still all applied right after toughness mitigation, and before absorb shields.

Wich means toughness, damage reducers and absorb are all very effective against critical hits ; that's why you see sometimes crits lower than 100 on an usual crit of 900-1k. Because all damage reducers


After all the mitigation process, half the damage is fully applied to the tank guarding you (if he didnt block/parry the guard hit and if he was in range ofc).

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tazdingo
Posts: 1006

Re: Question about some stat.

Post#8 » Tue May 17, 2022 11:10 am

ah, i see. well thanks for the clarification i never knew this stuff myself. i just knew that going past 700/800 never seemed to be worth it in practice. every choppa i speak to also seems to avoid stacking it these days so i thought everyone was dumping it

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