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Dev restart the balance to the beginning

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Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Dev restart the balance to the beginning

Post#31 » Sat Mar 02, 2024 11:26 pm

hogun wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 10:25 am
Bozzax wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 9:55 am Hogun you are right to some extent the problem where we are is that many dest only treats/abilities has been nuked over the years CS, aoe snare on BO/SnB nerf, morale etc etc. At this point we need to see the 2nd part of balancing bf drawing any real conclusions. It is safe to say tho that current state is pretty bad.

Since "order being nerfed" is tossed around randomly like a fact I'd like you take a second and look at actual numbers
- RoR T2+ Population Balance (homepage) 0h to 23h over the last 7 days Order 47.2% Destruction 52.8%
- RvR Kills 0h to 23h over the last 7 days Total Kills: Order: 56881 Destruction: 54689
- Average Kill Percent (mean): Order: 49.4% Destruction: 50.6%
- Typical Kill Percent (median): Order: 49% Destruction: 51%
Bozzax, the chiffres are a macro analysis. And you think among the presenters there is a reason that BLOB vs BLOB is the order's advance. I don't know how to give a KD to BG and pounce to SH to influencé this blob combat.
The mass combats are now spam AE+proc. maby proc BW is better than proc Sorcerer. perhaps, no longer having "retribution" in this ROR form, and that 9 target for the AEs will correct the problem. remember on the live we fight bioball meta, because in the same zone only 9 players were touched. and the AEs did not combine
Who would had guess that give choppa/slayer ( the class with the strongest dmg meccanic in game) a stack able 150% dmg increase 40 feet channeling would had been a bad dea.....

Who would had guess that return to a proc meta specificaly nerfed because was such poor complexity choice for any game would had been a bad choice.

Who would really.....
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Rotgut
Posts: 103

Re: Dev restart the balance to the beginning

Post#32 » Sun Mar 03, 2024 2:27 am

Absinth wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:30 pm Yet still slayers deal more damage per their death than choppas ... and still your avarage slayer deals more dmg than a choppa...
The changes were nerf for your run of the mill slayer player that played it only because the class included easy mode button, now you are stripped of one button to kill every tank on enemy realm.
Choppa is laughingly weak compared to a white lion that spins 360 aoe with 2 procs from wp and bw.

Choppa on avarage 4.1k damage, their damage % per their death is 79% (that means that on median your right in the middle of the playerbase choppa will deal enough damage to leave target at 21% of their HP)
White lion on avarage 6.4k damage, their damage % per their death is 113% (that means that on median your right in the middle of the playerbase whitelion will deal enough damage to kill one person and leave another on 87%)

If those two metrics dont matter to you, then you still have the Kill credit that is being owned by WL's compare to the other twos, and KAD (essentially kill contribution) that is being won by choppa but ever so slightly but one could say its skewed due to choppa playerbase being soo large.
My issue with this is that most of the Choppas we're getting data from are from Freebootaz. They don't run DoKs or Sorcs in their WBs, and they are very active (they got 23k kills last month, the 2nd highest of all active Guilds).

So any "dmg % data" is not gonna be an accurate reflection of what the Class can do.

A better indication that Choppa are strong atm is Gravord running 5 Choppas 4 cities in a row (with 4 DoKs and a Sorc), and Matt picking a double choppa comp (again with a DoK) for a ST party in city. I don't think they are super broken, but they are far from being bad. Their upfront dmg is really high, the fact that Stompin is in a 360º Cone of Fire dumbs the game down a bit cuz it encourages balling both frontline and backline together to protect ur healers, but overall its fine.

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Ysaran
Posts: 1240

Re: Dev restart the balance to the beginning

Post#33 » Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:59 am

Farrul wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 9:23 am
Ysaran wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:05 am
Aethilmar wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 12:18 am

Yes. And they did such a fine job on the tanks. Lets recap:

Chosen (best Destro tank already) - buffed
Knight (best Order tank already) - buffed
BG (famously played by someone on balance team) -buffed
Swordmaster - nerfed hard
IB - nerfed
BO - ??? (I'll defer to BO players on this one)

I don't need them to go back to AoR. I just need them to go back to December and start over from there.
Complaint complaint complaint. Ppl on this forum are only capable of complaining. I wouldn't liste to such ppl eaither. SM got nerfed and do you know how many balance proposal for SM were posted in the last 2 month? A big, fat 0. Last proposal if from Juna 2023. Same for IB.
Imho it is constructive critisicm delivered with a bit of frustration which is understandable considering the nature of these ill-thought-out nerfs that has ruined a lot for the affected classes.
@Farrul: No it is not constructive criticism. it would be constructive criticism if ppl actually tought at solutions to their (percived or real, doesn't matter) problem.ppl are just whining. Start posting some solutions if you think there is a problem.
Avernus wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 10:10 am As far as i know, SM was considered (more or less) okay, having only 1 famous problem (no ST punt). Then, SM got nerfed while getting new ST punt (with tactic). Oh, and this new ST punt is worst of all tank ST punts.
@Avernus: To yeah, and i read some decent proposal on how to fix it in this or that thread. so why there is no proposal in the balance forum?

Dackjanielz wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 11:07 am You know IB and SM were two of the least played classes in the entire game.

And why does a lack of them being mentioned of them on the forums warrant nerfs exactly?

Im guessing you're a destro player - Same old story.
@Dackjanielz: It is not a matter of "being mentioned" or not. The point is that if you think something is broken (SM or IB or whatever) you should also propose a fix. If you don't propose a fix but keep complaining then I assume that you don't really care about what you are complaining for but that you are just complaining for the sake of it.

P.S. Well, you guessed wrong. I'm not a "DeStRo PlAyEr - SaMe OlD StoRy". I play whatever I like, be it destro or order. Honestly, the fact that to you the term "destro player" has a negative connotation say more about you than me. But maybe I'm reading it wrong?
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Aethilmar
Posts: 636

Re: Dev restart the balance to the beginning

Post#34 » Sun Mar 03, 2024 6:33 am

Ysaran wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:59 am
Farrul wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 9:23 am
Ysaran wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:05 am

Complaint complaint complaint. Ppl on this forum are only capable of complaining. I wouldn't liste to such ppl eaither. SM got nerfed and do you know how many balance proposal for SM were posted in the last 2 month? A big, fat 0. Last proposal if from Juna 2023. Same for IB.
Imho it is constructive critisicm delivered with a bit of frustration which is understandable considering the nature of these ill-thought-out nerfs that has ruined a lot for the affected classes.
@Farrul: No it is not constructive criticism. it would be constructive criticism if ppl actually tought at solutions to their (percived or real, doesn't matter) problem.ppl are just whining. Start posting some solutions if you think there is a problem.
Avernus wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 10:10 am As far as i know, SM was considered (more or less) okay, having only 1 famous problem (no ST punt). Then, SM got nerfed while getting new ST punt (with tactic). Oh, and this new ST punt is worst of all tank ST punts.
@Avernus: To yeah, and i read some decent proposal on how to fix it in this or that thread. so why there is no proposal in the balance forum?

Dackjanielz wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 11:07 am You know IB and SM were two of the least played classes in the entire game.

And why does a lack of them being mentioned of them on the forums warrant nerfs exactly?

Im guessing you're a destro player - Same old story.
@Dackjanielz: It is not a matter of "being mentioned" or not. The point is that if you think something is broken (SM or IB or whatever) you should also propose a fix. If you don't propose a fix but keep complaining then I assume that you don't really care about what you are complaining for but that you are just complaining for the sake of it.

P.S. Well, you guessed wrong. I'm not a "DeStRo PlAyEr - SaMe OlD StoRy". I play whatever I like, be it destro or order. Honestly, the fact that to you the term "destro player" has a negative connotation say more about you than me. But maybe I'm reading it wrong?
The entire subject thread is the suggestion ... i.e. restart/rollback these changes and start again. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is wrong or whining or "just complaining". Ironically you have the least constructive feedback in the thread yet you think you are being the voice of reason.

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hogun
Posts: 293

Re: Dev restart the balance to the beginning

Post#35 » Sun Mar 03, 2024 8:05 am

[/quote]

The entire subject thread is the suggestion ... i.e. restart/rollback these changes and start again.
[/quote]

Yes!
because building on a solid foundation is the best way to get there.
1 We all loved AoR or we wouldn't be here, but that doesn't mean there weren't improvements to be optimised.
2 we can draw up a list of changes that we can all agree on. stealth for example, the last patch on attributes (stamina, initiative etc).
3 make a list of things that could be agreed like the fact that on the live the WL deserved to be nerfed in dmg, the fact that "rampage" can be on 5s-10s etc ...) validate these choices before implementation by evidence / log / statistics and not by input comments.
4 share upstream thoughts on classes with a medium-term vision. and remember that a comment from a player who only plays on one side will never be objective. because as soon as you play on both sides you realise that the other's criticisms are similar. and the basis for this is a lack of knowledge.

I would add that announcing a restart of the balance could bring back many players who have been disappointed by class changes that are sometimes a bit arbitrary (we've all heard of other servers that wanted to be closer to AoR).
My video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65aHhb4kCJU
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Ysaran
Posts: 1240

Re: Dev restart the balance to the beginning

Post#36 » Sun Mar 03, 2024 8:19 am

Aethilmar wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 6:33 am The entire subject thread is the suggestion ... i.e. restart/rollback these changes and start again. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is wrong or whining or "just complaining". Ironically you have the least constructive feedback in the thread yet you think you are being the voice of reason.
You are right, this sure is an error of mine. Hogun suggestion may be excessive (roll back years of change? killing at least three specs, i.e. shield wp/dok, msh and msw? Seems kind of an exageration to me) but it is still a suggestion and It was never my intention to deny it. What my original post was about was related to YOUR, Aethilmar, post, not Hogun's one. So, yeah, I apologize to Hogun.

P.S. Still, there are no recent balance proposal and that's a fact
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Avernus
Posts: 321

Re: Dev restart the balance to the beginning

Post#37 » Sun Mar 03, 2024 9:51 am

Ysaran wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:59 am
Avernus wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 10:10 am As far as i know, SM was considered (more or less) okay, having only 1 famous problem (no ST punt). Then, SM got nerfed while getting new ST punt (with tactic). Oh, and this new ST punt is worst of all tank ST punts.
@Avernus: To yeah, and i read some decent proposal on how to fix it in this or that thread. so why there is no proposal in the balance forum?
I'll be honest - since i'm not a streamer or some famous premade (random) warband leader or anything like that - i do not believe my words will be considered.

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Absinth
Posts: 184

Re: Dev restart the balance to the beginning

Post#38 » Sun Mar 03, 2024 8:16 pm

Rotgut wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 2:27 am A better indication that Choppa are strong atm is Gravord running 5 Choppas 4 cities in a row (with 4 DoKs and a Sorc), and Matt picking a double choppa comp (again with a DoK) for a ST party in city. I don't think they are super broken, but they are far from being bad. Their upfront dmg is really high, the fact that Stompin is in a 360º Cone of Fire dumbs the game down a bit cuz it encourages balling both frontline and backline together to protect ur healers, but overall its fine.
Him running choppa stack yet he still lost last 2 altdorfs and if not for the enemies mistakes he would also lost that last IC...
Stompin is in 360 degree cone just like wl spin, yet noone cries about that one or rather noone wants to talk about it.
The issue is not choppa, its this dumb proc meta that choppa can utilize well because its also part of his kit (morale and stompin) only chars that can utilize it better is mSH (that was nerfed) and WL (that nicely takes the crown for most classes in last monthly killboard)

Not to say that stompin is enchantment, just shatter it :)
The same thing that people said towards destro when people were talking about rampage being op, just shatter it bro.
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Emissary
Community Management
Posts: 329

Re: Dev restart the balance to the beginning

Post#39 » Sun Mar 03, 2024 9:12 pm

Great conversations, folks. Feedback is always welcome. I moved the topic from General to "Suggestions & Feedback" ... thank you
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Rotgut
Posts: 103

Re: Dev restart the balance to the beginning

Post#40 » Sun Mar 03, 2024 9:24 pm

Absinth wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 8:16 pm
Rotgut wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 2:27 am A better indication that Choppa are strong atm is Gravord running 5 Choppas 4 cities in a row (with 4 DoKs and a Sorc), and Matt picking a double choppa comp (again with a DoK) for a ST party in city. I don't think they are super broken, but they are far from being bad. Their upfront dmg is really high, the fact that Stompin is in a 360º Cone of Fire dumbs the game down a bit cuz it encourages balling both frontline and backline together to protect ur healers, but overall its fine.
Him running choppa stack yet he still lost last 2 altdorfs and if not for the enemies mistakes he would also lost that last IC...
Stompin is in 360 degree cone just like wl spin, yet noone cries about that one or rather noone wants to talk about it.
The issue is not choppa, its this dumb proc meta that choppa can utilize well because its also part of his kit (morale and stompin) only chars that can utilize it better is mSH (that was nerfed) and WL (that nicely takes the crown for most classes in last monthly killboard)

Not to say that stompin is enchantment, just shatter it :)
The same thing that people said towards destro when people were talking about rampage being op, just shatter it bro.
I''ll cry about WLs being able to move while doing the spin, i think proper positioning is a very cool game mechanic and a movable, high dmg 360º spell dumbs that down.

But i'm missing ur point here, are u saying that Choppas are weak or strong? I think they are fine as they are. I don't like the 360º u can move exactly where u want it (and u can stack with GTDC which is the same **** thing), but yeah, it is what it is.

And i'm also not a fan of proc meta. Forces you to run too many of the same class (like Rampage/GTDC meta did aswell) and fights are too fast. But if Devs nerf procs right now without any other changes, i have a feeling it will turn into a Morale Meta and Order is just ****. SW's morale drain got nerfed, Mara got their morale drain (used to be a morale halt), Blorcs have a morale drain now to. I'm consistently getting Bellowed + M2 pushed when i'm not even at M2. If that becomes the main win condition for a fight, its just over imo.

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